It seems strange to use the word freedom when discussing the disease of addiction and its collateral damage. How can one find peace when there is no cure?
Kathryn has experienced the unimaginable death of two children to illnesses and witnessed a third child be held hostage by addiction, a progressive, chronic, and potentially fatal disease.
In this episode, Kathryn shares how education, counseling, and her faith have led her to be able to live life on life’s terms. Kathryn also introduces us to her other children, Andrew and Abby.
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See full transcript below.
00:01
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast. A place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Intro: Welcome back. I have had to learn in recovery that a feeling is just a feeling, and it will pass. It sounds so simple, yet it is not. When I have tried to use food and others to avoid and numb all feelings that I believed I couldn’t handle. Today’s episode is full of feelings and Kathryn’s sharing is a rich, beautiful example of the gifts of living life on life’s terms even when life has brought so much pain to her. Let’s get back to Kathryn.
00:58
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast
Margaret 01:15
Did you try in the early days to get hold of Brian intercede with Brian do something with Brian more than you do now in your journey?
Kathryn 01:24
Well, I think like we talked about earlier, I would try to intercede. I would even say or think I’m not sure if I ever said it or not. But think if you really loved me, you would stop drinking. If you really cared about the possibility of me losing three children, you would not drink.
Margaret 01:48
The burden we as family, put on an already sick person to be responsible for our wellness is deeply profound in this illness. I’m going to be alright, if they’re okay.
Kathryn 02:04
Yeah. It’s not something that any other illness you feel that way about,
Margaret 02:12
Really? Is that true in your experience with your other children?
Kathryn 02:16
I never thought if you really love me, you would get well.
Margaret: You accepted.
Kathryn: They couldn’t control it. They couldn’t control it. That thought never even entered my mind.
Margaret 02:27
How we see this disease so differently isn’t it’s amazing.
Kathryn: It is.
Margaret: And I thank you for that honesty, because that’s not an easy truth to share. But boy, if that isn’t recovery at work, because if we don’t get real about our truth, even though maybe not so pretty bits we don’t get well. So, again, unintentionally, no mal intent. Your thought with him at some point in this journey was if you cared enough about me and loved me enough and knew what I’ve been through, which he does, and didn’t want me to go through more,
Kathryn: Yes
Margaret: you would stop. And interestingly, I’m guessing because we don’t have Brian here. So, I don’t know. Brian’s disease was telling him. What about my pain of having lost two kids and having parents who were so distracted and in such sorrow?
Kathryn 03:19
And Brian has verbalized that, and he has sought counseling for that. He has a point said, I’m so tired of hearing, oh, your poor parents. What about my pain? What about being the only one left?
Margaret 03:39
The irony on that, Kathryn is that I’ve interviewed siblings of someone who has this disease. And they’ve said within their family system, they felt that a lot like the person with the disease is getting all of the attention. What about me, I’m getting on with life. I’m doing the right thing. What about me? It’s amazing that everyone in the family has their own unique pain, and yet such similarities in the pain.
Kathryn 04:04
And it’s like everyone takes on their own role in the disease. You know, I’ve been thinking about Brian’s friendships, since he’s become sober. And I used to say, Brian burned a lot of bridges in his relationships, you know, in his younger years. And Brian didn’t burn the bridges, his disease, burn the bridges. And you know, if I could get anyone to understand that it would be huge. Brian didn’t do anything on purpose. Brian was just vulnerable to this horrible disease that has just taken control of his life and has changed it forever.
Margaret 04:54
And the ripple effect was change everyone who loved him.
Kathryn: That’s right.
Margaret: And I’m doing had you said that and what I was going to say as the work you have done in your Al Anon and in your therapy, it is so clear that you have an ability to discern and separate him from his disease that comes through when you speak, so vividly. And it makes me so happy for you and for Brian, that you have that awareness.
Kathryn 05:20
But it’s been a journey, a hell of a journey.
Margaret 05:24
Yes. One we wish no one has to go through.
Kathryn: That’s right
Margaret: Not the person with the disease and not the person surrounding the person with the disease.
Kathryn: That’s right.
Margaret: When you look at the journey, which has been hell at times on earth, for lack of saying in a better way? What are the things that you hold most dear, in your solution? That’s given you peace that’s given you joy. Like, what are the nuggets you’d share with families out there who just struggled to find that?
05:55
Kathryn: I think I would say the number one thing is, we didn’t cause it, you know, those three C’s? We didn’t cause it; we can’t cure it. And what’s the other C?
Margaret: Control.
Kathryn: We can’t control it. And I really feel like I can, most days all day, hold on to those truths, which has been for me so freeing. Because I did and we probably all do blame ourselves. You know, I think if we had not been so distracted with sick kids, for so long, really, Brian was three years old when Andrew was diagnosed, and he lived for six years. I mean, we always made sure he was well taken care of. And my parents and David’s parents were not here. So, you know, it was mostly friends who rallied with us and for us. But it wasn’t mom and dad all the time. Like, you know, a normal, busy family is, you know, with three young kids. So, I’d say that was one thing that I hold dear, that has helped me cope.
Margaret 07:08
Did you ever struggle to believe that about either of the others. You didn’t cause it, can’t control it, can’t cure it?
Kathryn 07:12
No, that never occurred to me.
Margaret 07:17
I didn’t think it had by what you said earlier, but I wanted to clarify that.
Kathryn 07:20
Yeah. Yeah, the thing that continues to be so huge in my life is I set my alarm for 6am. And I spend a couple of hours in prayer and meditation in the morning. And part of it is Bible study. Part of it is devotionals and meditations and part of it is Al-Anon Literature.
But if I didn’t do that on a regular basis, I do believe I’d be a bitter old lady. And I’m not, you know, I’m not. And I’m grateful that I have that. I’m grateful that I have that faith. Because from that faith has brought me tremendous strength. Do you still pray to Andrew? No, not anymore?
Margaret: Okay.
Kathryn: And I haven’t for a long time. I talked to him, but I don’t pray to him. Sure. I talk to both my kids.
Margaret 08:24
Would you like to share something about either of them?
Kathryn 08:27
Andrew was a very wise soul. As I said he was diagnosed as an infant, and he lived for six years. And when he was about nine months old, one of his nurses told me, Andrew knows the secret to life. And to me, Andrew gave in very adult ways. Adults loved him. He didn’t have the good friends that most kids have, because so much of his time he was in and out of the hospital so many times.
And Abby, every mother ought to have daughter, like Abby. She was one of those kids that, you know, a lot of teenage girls, adolescent girls can be real pains. And Abby never was, you know, and this was before she got sick. And I remember her. After she died. We got together with her whole medical team to just kind of talk about what happened at the time of her death. And her nurse practitioner said, you know, when kids come into the clinic, when they’re first being diagnosed, you just want them to be stupid little kids. She said, you know, kids aren’t going to do very well when they come in and they’re so wise. She said Abby It was so wise when she came. She was a joy. Her name means joy.
Margaret: Yes. And I have an Abbi too.
Kathryn 10:11
I know you do. I just learned that.
Margaret 10:16
Yeah. And she is my joy. And every human being that has been brought into our lives brings us something. And I wish you had Andrew and Abby, still with you. I wish they did not have to pass. So how would you describe Brian, who is still with you, but has been kidnapped and hijacked as a disease.
Kathryn 10:40
Brian has a huge heart. He would do anything for anybody. He’s kind, he’s empathetic. Because his heart is enormous. And I’m so grateful to have him right now. You know, I don’t know where he is, in making amends to people. But I was the first person that he made amends to. And it was quite powerful. He wasn’t specific, more general. And he left it open. To visit it again, which I like to do. The more I think about what he said to me.
Margaret 11:34
With your wisdom, Kathryn on the character defects and the work you’ve done on yourself, have you broached amends with him at this point, or ever?
Kathryn 11:45
I have? Just recently, but that was a question my therapist asked me to. And again, it was not out of any malice at all.
Margaret: Never.
Kathryn: I didn’t know, I was ignorant of the disease. And I’m just so grateful that we have the knowledge we have about it, and the research that’s been done about it. That helps us to understand, and I said earlier that one of my boundaries was if you smell like alcohol, I don’t want to be with you. I don’t know that I would hold that boundary right now. I can’t say but I feel like the most important thing I want him to know is that I love him unconditionally. And whether he’s drinking or not, I’ll enjoy our relationship much more if he’s not drinking, but it’s not going to change my love for him.
12:49
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Bumper:
Hello listeners and friends. I wanted to just let everybody know that the Embrace Family Recovery Coaching Group will begin on February 8th at 8:00 PM Eastern Standard Time.
I am thrilled that this will be an ongoing resource for families.
I will be offering the group twice a month on a Wednesday evening.
The topics starting out this series will be the parallel journey of the recovery process, and powerlessness.
If you’re interested or know someone who could benefit or would like to be a part of this group, please see the link in the show notes below and you will have a link to directly register to be a part of the group.
It is a closed group and only people who register will participate.
Look forward to seeing you in our first group on the 8th!
14:04
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast. Can you relate to what you’re hearing? Never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.
Margaret 14:16
Well, that’s the vitality of boundaries. They’re for you. And they’re about your well-being not controlling him. And they can change and adjust as you have needs that are different. They’re not solid walls or they’re not permanent.
Kathryn: Right? Yeah.
Margaret: I don’t know you very well, which is one of the things that I find stunning about this podcast experience of being able to meet these wonderful human beings that are brought into my life by no coincidences I ever think. But I feel like I have a connection to you and I’m probably, it’s Riley because of course we share that love I have Mila, but I just admire you on a level that I probably can’t express adequately. Because the impact of this disease on everyone is profound and heartbreaking and exhausting. But having lost two children prior to this disease manifesting and Brian, the fact that you have embraced a recovery program that has given you the ability to have peace and joy is stunningly beautiful and remarkable. And that’s due to you.And I hope you can hold that. Yes, I understand. There’s all these outside factors, your higher power your therapist, your solution, but you leaned in?
Kathryn: I did, yes.
Margaret: You wanted to not be bitter.
Kathryn 15:51
I didn’t think it was an option. For me, it was not an option.
Margaret 15:55
And I wish somehow other families could hear that without having to go through the sorrow and pain you went through. That did they could accept that truth for themselves at the point they’re at now. Because I like you believe your best gift to everyone you love is role modeling your recovery out loud. Whether they do it or not. They see you do it.
Kathryn 16:21
Well, as I was praying about this, podcast, this interview, that’s what I prayed for, that my story would flow naturally and authentically through me. And even if there’s just a nugget of something that I said, that’s good, and I give God the glory for that.
Margaret 16:44
I second that. And I add, it also gets to be partly you for your courage and willingness to be of service and share your story in the way you did in the podcast.They couldn’t hear it otherwise.
And I have no doubt whatsoever that someone out there, not only will be touched by your story, but will be connecting to a part of it.
So on that vein, what would you leave your number one wish for any listener to do for their well-being?
Kathryn 17:16
My wish is that if anyone out there has even the slightest inkling to get help. Take that step and get that help. Because you’re not alone. And there are so many resources out there for people to help them get on their way. Because it can be a lonely journey.
You know, when I think, I didn’t want to talk about it, I didn’t want to share it. Because what would people think of me as a parent? What would people think of Brian? It was just hard to admit that I had done the very best I could raising him and still he became an alcoholic? How does that reflect on me? I will really talk to anybody who will listen because it’s such a huge problem in our society today. And it’s getting worse. And I just feel like nobody should have to suffer in silence. Because that’s what it is, is suffering in silence.
Margaret 18:28
I agree. And it’s also living in a place of shame.
Kathryn: Yes, yes.
Margaret: Today, you don’t live in that place of shame. Nor do you put that on your son. He stands in the light of his recovery, one day at a time as you do. And I don’t know anything else that’s worth celebrating them that.
Kathryn 18:50
I agree with you, Margaret. And I’m going to have dinner with him tonight. And I’ll be able to talk about this podcast. And I’m going to tell him, he texted me today and said I got called into work. So, I won’t be there. I work until five or 530. I’ll be there after that. Boy, that was a big trigger. Because that happened so many times in the past, but that he said I’ll be there after that, was encouraging to me.
Margaret 19:25
And the triggers don’t disappear for us, for the person with the substance use disorder or other addictions, the skills, the tools, the techniques we use to help us get out of that trigger and not listen to the monkey chatter that makes it go off the rails.
Kathryn 19:42
I liked that podcast about the monkey chatter that’s spot on.
Margaret 19:48
Why take that in high regard. Thank you, Kathryn. I hear for many people. Oh my gosh, you’ve been living in my head. The reality is it’s a term I came up with because I knew this was not individual. For me. It was a universal experience like, there had to be a title for it so we can identify anything you haven’t said you want to anything you haven’t shared you feel is important.
Kathryn 20:11
I think it’s good. I apologize for crying a couple times. I didn’t want to do that. But it happened.
Margaret 20:22
And I will say again, no apology necessary. I think that the saying that saved me around tears that I was taught in early recovery was those of us who cry, have an honor and a privilege because we cry for the 1000s and aren’t able to cry.
Kathryn: Wow, well, that’s
Margaret: never an apology necessary. And there’s also a physiological thing that I recently learned that the content of tears from grief and pain are different than those from joy. And the release is important either way.
Kathryn 20:54
I can see that.
Margaret: Yeah.
Kathryn: And I think sometimes holding back makes it worse. You know, and when I’m by myself and I can let go and let those tears flow more readily.
Margaret: Kathryn, I thank you
Kathryn 21:14
I thank you for inviting me to do this. I’m honored Margaret.
Outro: I have to thank Kathryn for being so vulnerable, so real, and sharing her story. I was in awe of her capacity to share the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to her own journey of recovery. It is evident in the way Kathryn shares that her faith has been a big tool for her recovery, and equally has been her education, and counseling, and support community to help her keep the focus on her and do her own healing. And the payoffs are evident in her lack of living a bitter life which she says was never an option and has shown to be true in her journey.
Margaret 22:12
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story.
Please find resources on my website.
This is Margaret Swift Thompson. Until next time,
please take care of you!
