The laughter strikes me in this episode and series with Jennifer Storm, the author of Blackout Girl!
It is fascinating that though the book’s subject and conversation are heavy, serious, and taken very seriously, we can also laugh. I believe the laughter comes from a sense of connectivity and the positive impact of the hard work of recovery and healing. We have to feel pain, accept times of loneliness, and be more tolerant of our vulnerability to feel joy and happiness.
In this episode, Jennifer speaks about relapse, recovery, and healing regarding trauma, the value of being heard, and the importance of validation.
We end with some rapid-fire questions that offer fun answers and more laughter!!
Please learn more about Jennifer Storm, her books, her documentary, her resources page on her website; the link below. When I visited her website, I felt even more grateful for her willingness to be a guest on The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast!
See full transcript below.
00:01
You’re listening to The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now, here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Margaret 00:24
Welcome back, today is my final episode with Jennifer Storm, the author of blackout girl, she will continue to share her experience on treating trauma with addiction, and other helpful tools for people who’ve experienced it themselves or love someone who’s experienced it. Let’s get back to Jennifer!
00:46
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
Margaret 01:00
What I would love you to touch on because I think that you have a perspective that is unique to your own story, but your experience on all the levels of work you’ve done in your personal life and professionally. If you would be willing to talk a little about trauma, mental illness, and substance use disorder. I know I’ve worked in the treatment world for a long time, and I know the different philosophies that there are, I’d love you to offer that because I hear from a family member who’s in crisis, and they’ll say, you know, their mental health is so bad and their chemical use and I think if you got the mental health dealt with the chemical use would be okay. And so, if you’re willing, you know, what’s your perception of that through what you’ve experienced, learned?
Jennifer 01:41
Yeah, it’s hard, and they’re intertwined. And so, you know, it used to be the philosophy that you couldn’t deal with them at the same time, that by acknowledging, you know, either traumatic experience or a mental health issue, at the same time as substance that you could trigger a relapse. And quite frankly, they have to be dealt at the same time, dealt with at the same time. Otherwise, if you deal with one, not the other, that’s the whole concept that I have about, you’re putting a BandAid on a bullet wound.
And abstinence alone is not going to keep somebody sober and keep them alive. Because you’re just dealing with the effect, you’re not dealing with the cause. And for many, many people, for the majority of people who go towards substances, there’s a cause, there’s a reason, there’s a there’s a springboard, whether it’s a traumatic event, whether it’s an undiagnosed mental illness, that they’re they’re suffering, there’s something.
While you know feeding recovery to a person, if you can focus more on that suffering, on that reason, on that causation, on that injury, on that illness at the same time, then you’re going to set that person up to succeed. The reason I continue to write it’s, I just developed a 10 week curriculum to specifically now my curriculum specifically addresses sexual violence as a traumatic injury, and substance use. But there aren’t enough programs out there that are really diving into that causation.
12 Step programs exists everywhere, they’re all over the place, you can go, you can go to meetings for free, like when I was in and still to this day, I can’t walk into a 12 step meeting and talk about being raped, it’s not safe. I will be told it’s an outside issue. It violates the traditions, it’s not structured that way. And that’s okay. 12 Step programs are amazing and phenomenal. They save lives. And everyday, they’re awesome. They’re not for everyone, but they’re for a lot of people. You need a place to go to heal from all that other stuff, or to take those challenges that may be diagnosable mental illnesses and be able to talk about that struggle in that stuff too, because they’re linked. They’re totally linked.
Margaret 03:52
So, I want to clarify, because words are really good and important. The philosophy that goes back to the disease of addiction is the why is less important than the fact I’ve got to get skills and tools to help me navigate life on life’s terms without that. So, the disease is the disease. I hear you saying causation. What I hear in my head is a traumatic event, a mental illness untreated, I find this avenue to try to manage my own well-being and it creates more consequence. So, in recovery, I’ve got to find a way to look at those and do my recovery so that I can have wellness.
Jennifer 04:31
Yes. No, I do believe in the predisposition of addiction. The first time I picked up a drink. I had no trauma in my life. I picked up a drink, I drank alcoholically. I was predisposed to drink alcoholically. I then took that predisposition and use it as a coping mechanism. And then began to have all these traumatic experiences that then just exacerbated that coping mechanism, which also happened to be incredibly dysfunctional.
So yeah, I mean, I do believe in the disease of addiction, I do think that people, there’s a genetic predisposition that there’s, you know, chemical imbalances in the brain, all of that can lead to a higher propensity to use in a way that would label somebody as an addict or an alcoholic. I also though believe that it is a daily choice. We wake up every day. And we have a choice. Are we going to use this thing over here as our coping? Or are we going to use this thing over here?
I know for me, I will speak in my terms, the minute I picked up the negative choice, then my choice was taken from me, I had zero ability to control anything thereafter. And I would have argued back then that I even probably didn’t really have a choice in picking up, but I did. I just didn’t know any better, right?
So, once I started to learn new coping mechanisms, and other things that I could pick up that didn’t make me feel like crap and didn’t take me down a path where I wanted to kill myself, and I hurt other people. Then I just would wake up every day choose those things. But that takes a lot of recovery. And you know, I mean, it’s behavioral modification.
Margaret 06:12
Well and without recovery, would you’ve been introduced to what to have for alternatives? Without putting it down, long enough to learn them, how would you?
Jennifer 06:21
No, I wo, so I will say this, that in the curriculum that I have, I am working on, doing right now. I’m actually in the pilot, I have Week Three tomorrow night. It is a harm reduction, risk reduction program where I am not requiring abstinence, because I don’t want to set people up to fail. And I also know that when you start to visit trauma in a way that people have never visited before it can actually exacerbate their, it can, right. So, I don’t want them to think like, oh, all of a sudden, you have to apply all these new tools that I’ve given you right away. And if you fail, then you fail. Right. So, I think that’s also what how we need to look differently at what we call relapse, which, you know, I like to call feedback, because it just means that there’s more information there. There’s something that’s unresolved. So, you know, you can’t expect people to do this perfectly the first time. And I think that’s really important, especially for people who love those of us who suffer, because you just want them to get it like go to those 12 step meetings. Why? Why can’t, they were clean for months. Why? Why? Like, because they’re learning, and they’re unlearning. And it’s hard. And it’s easier to get high. And it’s easier to drink, than sit still and sit and suffer. Because early recovery actually requires some suffering. If you’re going to really move through traumatic experiences, there’s pain involved. Now on the other side of that pain, if we can refrain from actively using the other side of that pain can be healing. But it’s hard. And it takes time. And people need to be given the breadth and the space to learn and make mistakes. Because they’re going to make mistakes.
Margaret 07:59
Absolutely. I mean, I think a lot of people perceive treatment as a carwash, right? You go and you get your 30 days you come out and you just do great
Jennifer: Yeah! and people are shocked when they aren’t like
Margaret: I remember my description of my first year of recovery of abstinence was I felt like a porcupine.
Jennifer: Yeah
Margaret: You come too close to me and I’m, I’m bound to prick. Because I didn’t know what to do with my feelings. I had been numb my neck down. And I also tried everything I could to shut my mind off. And when I no longer had the coping mechanism or was not using those, that old coping mechanism. I didn’t know a feeling from a feeling I didn’t know what to do, how to tolerate, how to articulate, I was beating up the people I love the most because I didn’t know what to do with my feelings. So yeah, recovery is hard work. Only difference I would say to what you said. And it’s interesting because we all have our own experience and perception. I think staying in the addiction is more painful than doing the recovery work.
Jennifer 09:00
Oh, yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. Because it just layers on top of pain on top of pain. Yeah. Well, I was I was trying to say that is that there? It’s not that you get sober. Everything’s like sunshiny and wonderful. Gonna be some suffering because you’ve got to process through what you’ve created all that pain or what was done to you too. Yeah, so no, I agree. My worst day, though. It’s that saying my worst day in recovery is better than my best day in addiction. Hands down, hands down. Yes.
Margaret 09:30
I’m glad we went there because I like you. I remember getting into the program. And I was like, where’s Disneyland?
Jennifer: Yeah.
Margaret: Where’s the rainbows and unicorns? And it’s like, this sucks. Why do I bother if it’s gonna be this miserable? I’d rather go back which thankfully, I have a sponsor and I have people in my life who were like, let’s check that thought out. Like, let’s, let’s look at this.
Jennifer 09:50
Yeah, and you gotta push through that. Yeah, the loneliness, the isolation, because it is. Recovery can be very lonely in the beginning. I mean, it can be, listen it can be very lonely at all different aspects and times in your life. Because while there are very large communities now that are in recovery, we’re still you know, it’s still the norm to like go to happy hour and to like, you know, you get a new job and everybody’s going to the bar at five o’clock to drink, and you have to then do that whole thing where like, I’m the outsider, and I’m not doing that, or that’s not a safe place for me. And, and so you know, there are times where it’s not easy, but it’s definitely worth it. It’s worth it every day.
Margaret 10:24
And I am curious for you, if it’s the same as for me, having people who were on the journey with me helped me remember, I wasn’t as alone and helped me get through it if I was willing to tell them when I was going through it, which was my job.
Jennifer 10:38
Yeah, no, no, you need people, right? Belonging, connectivity only let’s say back to Brené Brown, right. Like so much of her research talks about like, the need to belong, is fundamental, it’s human. And you have to have, you have to find people that you feel less alone around, that can help you, that can support you, that you can be vulnerable with.
Bumper: This podcast is made possible by listeners like you.
Margaret 11:03
it is amazing to me to think that I have gone from one listener to almost 5000 downloads of this podcast, that just blows my mind. And I’m so excited to see this expand and grow and reach more people. I am grateful for the feedback I’ve been receiving of people saying it has given them tremendous value and support on their journey of recovery as family members.
So, I’m calling out to all my listeners. And I’m saying let’s grow this some more. And in this being the second year of being in the business, my business embrace family recovery, I’d like to expand the content of the podcast.
So, if you have any ideas, interest areas, people you think would be fabulous guests, please send me an email. My email address is Margaret@nullembracefamilyrecovery.com.
I would love to expand the guests to include other types of addictions, we’ve mainly focused on substance use disorder, chemical addictions, I’d like to get some behavioral addictions in there.
Food, sex, gambling, gaming, whatever aspect of this illness has affected you as a family member, and how you found your way through the journey of the disease in active behavior or use and into recovery. So, if you fit that category, and you’re willing to share your story, you know, by now, if you’re listening that this is a conversation, a place where we just share. And that seems to be working as a way to offer people the chance to feel less isolated and know they’re not alone in this process. So please reach out to me with ideas, being willing to be a guest.
Again, my email is Margaret@nullembracefamilyrecovery.com
And thank you for all your support. And let’s keep this growing and reaching more family members out there. Please share this podcast with anyone who has been touched by the disease of addiction. Thanks, and take care of you.
13:21
You’re listening to The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, can you relate to what you’re hearing, never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.
Margaret 13:30
So, one of the things that also I found vital was somebody validating my experience. And I’m guessing you have a perspective on that to through everything you’ve been through. I don’t know if your brain did what my brain did. But my brain tried to tell me it never happened. My brain tried to tell me that it wasn’t what it was. And I looked for somewhere evidence to prove it. When it’s two people involved, that’s really tricky.(laughter) And trying to go to well-intentioned therapists who don’t have a clue on how to step beside you, and be on the journey with you. Again, back in the day when it was so limited what the resources were. So, we’re talking 90s, early 90s. And I just wonder for you, where validation comes in, and how you could maybe speak to the family members out there. When they get an awareness that there has been trauma, how they could step up and be supportive and validating.
Jennifer 14:40
I mean the most important thing you can do is let the people know that you believe them. Even if you don’t, even if you have a question or if you have a doubt. What’s the harm in just believing that person and and letting them know that they’re not alone. And that while you might not be able understand, you support them, you love them, you’re sorry that it happened. There are so, such beautiful simple ways to support people that don’t require a lot of talk. Just showing up and being there. Listening. One of my biggest lessons that I learned, interestingly enough more through managing staff than really through this work, but also equally applied to this work was that most people don’t want you to solve their problems. They want you to listen to them.
Margaret 15:38
Okay, I need you to stop right there.
Like if I could yell and Amen, I would be I would be yelling an amen because again, the number one struggle for my clients who love with every ounce of their being their people, think they can help them solve it or figure out the solution. So, say that, again.
Jennifer 15:58
What people mostly need is for someone to listen to them, not to solve their problems. And like I said, interestingly enough, I learned this more in managing staff I, in my time, I often I my first job, I had a staff of 25. And then my last job was a staff at 32. And you know, if you’re a boss, people just come in, and they just vent, right, that’s what they do. That’s what employees do, they need a sounding board, they vent they vent. And in the beginning, be a fixer, and being an advocate and all that. I was like, I’m gonna fix this for you, I’m gonna do this, I’m gonna do that. And what I found is that I was creating all this chaos. And sometimes it worked, right? Sometimes the solution might have been good, but most of the time, it just created more drama. And it took me a while to realize like, Oh, I’m creating the drama, (laughter) like, just bringing stuff to me. And I had to really sit down and realize, like, they don’t want me to do anything with this. They just want me to listen, and validate, and hear them. And what I have found now, obviously, over time is that that is what most people need. They just need to be heard.
So, I will often ask when people come to me with something, I’ll say, like, are you looking for feedback? And let them tell you, some say no, I just needed to get that out. And I am good. See you later. I’m gonna go do what I need to do. Some might say yeah, like, I need help. I need resources. It can be like, Okay. HMHMM,(laughter) come on in, Fixer! But again, resources not fixing. Here are the things that I understand to be helpful in these circumstances. They may be helpful to you. They might not be but here’s some things
Margaret 17:44
Offer and they accept and do or don’t, it’s on them. Yeah, yeah. So, with the people in your world, where do you find it hardest to do that? Listening? Not stepping in. Is there an area of the of your relationships a part of your life that that’s harder for you?
Jennifer 18:04
Probably my son, my little guy, because I just want to make his whole world perfect. And I you know, and, and what I’m really trying to do right now, because he’s six, so he’s at that age where he’s independent. You know what I mean? But like, he still, he’s a mama’s boy, he wants me to do everything for him.
Margaret: Yeah.
Jennifer: Is to not
Margaret: Yeah,
it’s so easy to jump in and do things for them at that age. And so like, even this morning, like, he, when he was getting dressed, he’s like, Mommy, help me. I’m like, you don’t need my help. I’ve watched you put a shirt on 100 times. You know how to put that shirt on, put the shirt on. And I walk away.
Margaret: Yeah.
Jennifer: You know, so much easier though, to put the shirt on, because of course it took him 20 minutes with the shirt,
Margaret: right?
Jennifer: But he put it on, so is that patience, but I’m loving him better by letting him figure it out. Then if I just swoop in and do it for him. He’s not gonna learn anything other than mommy swoops in and does it for me, so I don’t have to learn this thing.
Margaret 19:03
Amen. Sandra Swenson. Are you familiar with Sandy?
Jennifer: No?
Margaret: Oh, please get her on your radar. Sandy Swenson is a mom who’s written Tending Dandelions and Tending Dandelions is a meditation book for mamas of people with the disease of addiction and her son is not in recovery.
Jennifer: Okay.
Margaret: And her belief is plant seeds. If I spread my love to the universe, eventually when my son needs help somebody out there will have those seeds and yeah, and be able to help. She is remarkable. And her word is unabling not enabling. I refuse to unable my child from becoming the person they’re destined to be. I can’t rob them of those things they need to learn. And that’s what you’re speaking to and when they’re six and cute as a whip and mom, mom’s everything to them. That same drive is still there when they’re 16 and 26 And we have to manage our own emotions to be able to be a healthy parent.
Jennifer 20:04
I do have my daughter now, you know, she has a TV that is broken, it is sitting in her bedroom, she has tried to take it out to the trash, they do not take it because they don’t take televisions anymore. They have left a note instructing her where she should go to drop it off. She’s just expecting me to go down, pick it up, take it out. And I’m not gonna. Just the other day, I sent her the link again. Hey, by the way, look who’s taking TVs right now? Yeah.
Margaret 20:26
When I think your word patience is really important for family members to be reiterated. Right? On our timeline, it would get done by. In our expectation it would happen this way. But if we can step back and be patient and allow the process, what will your daughter feel when she finally gets that done?
Jennifer: Ah I did this, she’ll feel accomplished and worthy.
Margaret: Exactly. And it’s going to be on her timeline that she gets to feel that. And my coaching is for parents to let go of the nudge as much as possible, as often as possible, because then it comes back to that push pull that. And also, this disease loves to blame anybody. Right? So, it’s like how do I get myself out of being in the crosshairs? So, the disease has fodder to use against the person I love. So, you were saying you’re doing a pilot program? Have you also been writing more books?
Jennifer 21:24
So, I don’t have another book in the pipeline right now because I was focusing on the 15 week curriculum, which essentially an you know, is like a book. And now there is, there’s the thought that I may bring it to Hazelden. We’ve had initial conversations because they do publish curriculums. But I want to pilot it first. And I want to see how it goes. And I want to get feedback from the participants, and be able to, you know, make any tweaks that I need to make. But so far, it’s amazing. Just week to last week, I was I was floored by the level of vulnerability. And yeah, we’re just really pleased with the content so far.
Margaret 22:00
Wonderful.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Margaret: So, if you had anything you’d want to leave for listeners, whether they be family members, people who identify with having had traumatic experience, and not necessarily got help for it, what would you want to say?
Jennifer 22:17
It’s never too late. It’s never too late to get help. It’s never too late to unearth and revisit something that harmed you. And that still stands in your way.
Margaret 22:29
And how does one start the process when it feels daunting to actually open up that wound?
Jennifer 22:35
Yeah, it’s finding something or someone that you trust enough. So, whether it’s, you know, for me, like I said it was writing it first. Maybe it’s a support group, maybe it’s therapy, maybe it’s a meeting. Maybe it is just writing, maybe it’s a friend or person. Once you start bringing those dark things to light, it’s kind of contagious. And you start to see that, you know, there’s that saying that that light sunshine is the best disinfectant. It really is. Because then you’re no longer holding it, the minute you release one of those things, you’re free from it, the thing you might not still have to do some work around it. But that first initial step is always the hardest. So, I would say find that one person or that one thing and, and do that, and then build on that.
Margaret 23:30
A feeling is just a feeling, and it will pass.
Jennifer 23:33
Heck yeah, feelings are not facts. They come and go. I mean, I wish I would have known that as a young person. I tell my son that all the time. I’ll sit there and I’ll say that now think about how many fields you have had in the last hour, how quickly they come and go boredom, fear, anxiety, fun, hilarity, you know that and it’s because I want him to understand emotional regulation. And I want him to understand how fleeting emotions are, not only for the bad ones, but to also like, remember what joy and laughter and all that feels like because they come and go.
Margaret 24:04
Yeah, that’s beautiful. I think that’s a great tip no matter the age of your children, no matter the age of the person that you love with their own journeys and ourselves. Right. When we hit a wall as a family member of our fear, paralyzing us for what’s going on in someone’s life. It feels like we’re never going to come out from under it. And they will pass.
Jennifer 24:25
Especially if they’re validated, right like the one thing I do try to not do I remember this was always said to me when I was younger, you won’t feel like this forever, Jennifer. Okay, thanks. That’s great advice in the pit of my shit that I feel. You know, so it’s like, true, but also like, validate that I’m feeling like this right now. So, I will say things to my son like it’s okay to cry. Like it’s I know you’re mad, I get it. You shouldn’t be mad. Let’s feel that anger. Let’s process that anger so that he understands too though the power of emotions because you can’t regulate them. If you don’t understand them.
Margaret 24:58
We forget to have fun and we forget that. To laugh and to your point of all of the emotions we get so stuck in the tunnel of the fear and the worry and the pain. So, a little favorite game. So, instant answer. Ready? Rapid fire. You can do it, Jennifer.
Jennifer: Yes.
Margaret: So, we’ll start easy favorite color?
Jennifer: Purple
Margaret: Mountain top or oceanside?
Jennifer 25:21
Oceanside
Margaret: Favorite topping of pizza?
Jennifer: Peperoni
Margaret 25:29
Your favorite book?
Jennifer 25:32
Do I have a favorite book? Oh God, like so literally, like millions of covers are flashing before me. I can’t think of a single
Margaret 25:41
I can imagine. (laughter) It’s probably not fair to ask an author.
Jennifer 25:45
They’re like children, you can’t pick just one.
Margaret: Pick your own?
Jennifer: I do. I do love my books very, very much. I do. Gosh, that’s.
Margaret 25:56
So, we’ll say Blackout Girl. We can do that. We can allow that. Um, if you could talk to anyone, alive or dead? Who would it be? And why?
Jennifer 26:12
That’s another hard one.
Margaret 26:14
So I’m picking too tough ones today.
Jennifer 26:16
I know. Trying to think of like whose brain I really want to pick the most. For some reason Prince just keeps coming to my brain.
Margaret 26:24
That’s so funny. You can do Prince. I get that I’d love to sit and talk.
Jennifer 26:28
I would love to sit down and talk with him about just creativity and everything. Um
Margaret 26:32
That’s great. Yes.
Jennifer 26:34
That’s what they say. If I’m being honest, Prince came to my mind.
Margaret 26:37
I love honest Jennifer after reading your book, I’d expect no less.
Jennifer: There you go.
Margaret: Um, and then somewhere you’d love to go that you haven’t been.
Jennifer 26:48
Alright, so I’ve already I’ve been there for a brief moment, but I’m dying to get back. So that would be fair. Um Italy. Definitely gonna go to Italy. I’ve never been there.
Margaret: Okay,
Jennifer: Where I really, really want to go back though, is Iceland. So I ended up stranded
there overnight, randomly on a flight to the Netherlands. And I am desperate to go back and I’m trying to maybe go back this summer.
Margaret 27:08
So, here’s my recommendation. I went, loved it. Very unique. Very different. Very cool. So, two things. If I was ever to do again, there’d be two times I want to go or combine the two. Yeah, they have an amazing LGBTQ pride, activity time. The whole of Reykjavik like hundreds of 1000s of people very inclusive, very accepting. Very cool. Like I would go for that because I just think that would be amazing. But the thing that I would do different because we went as a group, which was cool, but the island is massive compared to what you think when you think of an island. And I would do what they have these really cool converter vans where you can sleep in them. But you go to these little they’re not Airbnbs there, you can plug in, you can sleep in your vehicle, but they have hot showers, laundry facilities, neat dining areas, right. Okay. That way your it’d be a couple’s thing I don’t think you’d want to do with a family because they’re not very big. But then you go around the whole island and see more of what I wish I’d seen.
Jennifer 28:15
Very cool idea. I love that.
Margaret 28:16
And if I did it again, that’s what I do. Because the places you park and eat at are very much home, authentic to Iceland. Families run them.
Jennifer 28:28
All right, I’m going to do that. I’m talking with a friend right now about going and that would be a really fun idea.
Margaret 28:35
Jennifer, it has been a privilege to spend time with you. I feel like I know you and I think a lot of it is having read your book.
Outro: I really hope you choose to read Jennifer’s book, Blackout girl. Jennifer shares with truth and vulnerability in such a way that offers women who have relatable stories, a chance to feel like they’re not alone, and that they have a voice. Jennifer, I can’t thank you enough as a woman in recovery, a sexual abuse survivor, for putting your words to paper and offering me a deeper look into my soul and my journey. And I know you’re doing the same for many, many more.
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story.
Please find resources on my website.
embracefamilyrecovery.com
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you!
