Welcome back to my second episode with Jorja Jamison, the author of Wounded Healing: The Art and Soul of Surthrival, which will be published in Fall 2024.
Today, Jorja shares the challenges of being a healer with a substance use disorder, navigating recovery without believing in God, the role of shame in her story, and listen for Jorja’s description of the shift from chasing to contentment.
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See full transcript here.
00:01
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Intro: Welcome back. Today I continue my conversation with Jorja Jamison. Jorja is the author of a book called ‘Wounded Healing the Art and Soul of Surthrival‘ which will be published in the fall. In today’s episode Jorja discusses the journey of being in recovery as someone in the healing profession and also shares how she has come to define her spirituality. Listen for her description of the shift from chasing to finding content. Let’s get back to Jorja.
01:27
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast
Margaret 01:44
There’s a double edged sword when you’re the healer, the identified helper. Talk about that a little bit because I have no doubt there are people out there in different professional worlds who are stuck and trapped in their illness because of the stigma, the shame, that’s different for them as a helper seeking help. Can you talk about that?
Jorja Jamison 02:05
I talk to these people every single day, you know, people who we identify in your society as healers, from health care providers, to therapists to clergy, people who are responsible for helping others with life’s difficulties. There’s sort of this pedestal we get put on, there’s this sort of expectation that we’re supposed to have it all figured out, or we’re supposed to have our lives together and be the perfect healthy specimens of wonderful living. And, first of all, nobody can do that. And then we all sort of fall short. But what it does, in particular, for the healer with a substance use disorder, is it creates this kind of cage. And the healer has to kind of separate out the wounded parts of themselves, the parts of them that isn’t doing well, and sort of put it deep down inside in little cage and never let it be seen and never let it out. And then you know, sort of be that, what everyone is expecting you to be on the outside. The person who, you know, has great wisdom and is able to treat, you know, just horrible diseases and perform surgeries and do all of these things. It is particularly difficult for a healer to have a substance use disorder.
Margaret 03:28
Do you remember what it felt like to go to your first meeting? Did you fear anonymity? Did you fear running into people? Did you have any concerns about that, or that was part of the mask?
Jorja Jamison 03:38
Well, back in 2004, I was in graduate school. And what’s really interesting is part of my story is the second semester of graduate school.
First of all, I wasn’t supposed to be in that program. I had no background in psychology. And I obviously had gotten in by some sort of fluke. And here I was in a master’s and Ph. D program. And our second semester, we had our first sort of client, which was a volunteer student, who we had to work with for five sessions.
And the whole purpose of the training is to teach the micro skills, the reflecting, the listening, and all that sort of stuff. But I knew that I had to heal this person to prove that I was worthy of being in the program. And of course, I didn’t,
Margaret: No pressure,
Jorja Jamison: No pressure, I couldn’t. But all those sessions are recorded and watched by a supervisor and that supervisor had to give me that feedback of you know, all the things I was doing wrong, you know. I talked more than the client, I just jumped right into solutions, just all the things that you know, we know that therapy is about, and I was so ripped open by that feedback. I thought it just meant there was no way I was going to be able to do this. And so that time came for me to do my first placement with real clients in a real Counseling Center. Two weeks before I was supposed to go, I emailed my advisor and said, I have to drop out of the program. Like I can’t, I can’t do this. And she wisely was like, talk to me what’s going on? And, you know, I sort of said, you know, I’m not equipped to be somebody’s therapist, and all that sort of stuff. And so, she worked with me, and she was just like, why don’t why don’t you stay out of clinicals this year? And why don’t you start your own journey in therapy, and let’s just sort of see if you can work on these issues, and then we’ll come back to it in a year.
And first of all, I didn’t even know that was an option. I thought it was, you know, everyone was all or nothing. And there was no grace, there was no, you know, anything. But I started therapy that fall. And Jenny came into my life, Jenny was my first therapist. And pretty early on, I’m sure that she knew exactly what I needed, that I had food addiction, that I had other addictions, and that I needed a 12 step community. And she would sort of gently, that might be something that would be really interesting to talk about at an AA meeting or an OA meeting or something like that. And I was completely, adamantly against it. I had been exposed to 12 step recovery in my teens, I had to go to treatment for bulimia. And that was where I first saw the 12 steps and the second thing work God was in there. I mean, it was just like, what that doesn’t apply to me. I mean, I haven’t known a lot about myself for a long time. But I’ve known since I was four years old that I didn’t believe in God. And so, it was another thing of like, well, this tool might work for other people, but it’s not going to work for me.
Margaret: Exactly.
Jorja Jamison: And so, for 18 months, Jenny and I went back and forth. And I would tell her why it wouldn’t work. And the next thing would come up, and she would gently suggest that this might be something that could finally after 18 on she wore me down and I was just like, okay, I’ll go. And I went and it was a Big Book meeting in OA, it was Overeaters Anonymous meeting. But it was a Big Book study that we read through the whole big book and just talked about how it applied to our food addiction. And probably five minutes into that meeting, I knew I had found my people like it was just like, okay, yeah, this these people have the thoughts I have. And these people have experiences that I have. And I finally felt somebody had shared things that I had done in my life.
Margaret 07:31
Yeah. There’s nothing quite like that feeling. Ever. And then there’s the oh, crap. That means I’m, I’m like them, that means I gotta do this. So, you brought up a few things, I’d like to tease out a little if you’re willing, for the listeners whose loved ones are struggling with spirituality of recovery or themselves? How have you navigated 12 step recovery, not believing in God?
Jorja Jamison 07:59
It’s a really interesting path, I have done several different sort of dives at it. I think my first dive, I was going to tackle it from an academic, intelligent spirit, that I was going to deconstruct this concept of higher power, and figure out what it was about, and then I was going to construct my own understanding of it, and that once I understood it, then that’s how I would sort of use it. And that didn’t work.
And couple of other, you know, trying to find different ways of doing it. It turns out my spirituality is science, I see a lot of things that have happened, and particularly through evolution, and really understanding the process of evolution and how things kind of unfold that it wasn’t until, you know, what if I didn’t have to have some sort of in destination, you know, what if it really was as simple as being honest, and letting other people help you.
And so, for me, the first concept of higher power that sunk in which again, was probably about 13 years and the 12 step recovery, was I would envision all the people who loved me, all my family, people in recovery, coworkers, everybody who loves me, I would envision them in a circle around me, like, sending their love to me. And every time I would think about what I need to do here, or what needs to happen here, I would think, what would they want for me? What would they want me to do? What do you know that sort of kind of thing. And that was what finally worked. That’s what finally helped.
Margaret: Beautiful.
Jorja Jamison: So that’s where I came to with the way the concept higher power is, is used. Personally, I think that my understanding of religion and God and all these different terms are you know, we are a species that’s evolved to do two things: we attach, and we make meaning. Like there’s no getting out of being human without attaching and making meaning. So, whatever you attach to, and however you make meaning out of that is your spirituality. And that’s what it is. And so, it can be most anything. I have known people who have recovered through their love and connection to animals, that they were, you know, willing to sort of give things up and do what they needed to do to take care of animals. Like that was their path. And so, it just, it is different for everyone.
Margaret 10:34
It is, sounds like you, in a way use the science to help you define, you know!
Jorja Jamison 10:40
It’s really interesting that I only came to the solution on the other end of it, my intellect is a key part of my identity. But I thought that if I could figure it out, if I could label it and dissect it that that is how I was going to understand higher power and it wasn’t that at all. That higher power is really just about feeling connected and feeling loved by you whoever or whatever, then that only after I had gotten to that did my definition of spirituality come to me?
Margaret 11:19
Yeah, it’s beautiful.
11:20
This podcast is made possible by listeners like you.
Bumper: Anyone enjoy book clubs? I do for a few reasons, I read books that I would not normally choose to read and I really value listening to other people who’ve read books share their experience with what they learned, read, and heard.
So, in that vein I’m beginning the Embrace Family Recovery free virtual Book Club starting Thursday April 18th at noon Eastern Standard Time for anyone who wants to join.
Ohh yeah what’s the book? The book is Worthy by Jamie Kern Lima. I chose this after learning more about Jamie’s story feeling a connection with her and wanting to eradicate the core belief and story in my head that has always said I’m not enough.
This book club is for anyone, and I welcome anyone who wants to dive into the lies that we have let stop us from believing we are worthy.
For links to my website embracefamilyrecovery.com to learn more and register.
Also really cool I have happened to come across an extra copy of the book Worthy which is really hard to find right now as they’re selling out. So, I will send to the 10th person who registers for this book club they’re free copy of Worthy.
I can’t wait to see you let’s get ready to do a deep dive into the book Worthy on a monthly basis.
13:05
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast. Can you relate to what you’re hearing, never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.
Margaret 13:17
To go from that little girl who I read about in the beginning of your book, to hear the way you describe yourself. In the shame of the illness, to picture your higher power as people loving and circling you it’s quite, it makes me emotional. It’s truly recovery working. I remember when I went to my first meeting, second meeting still happens some days, and they’ll say we’ll love you to you learn to love yourself. Keep coming back. I would gag. Like really? You’re gonna love me. I don’t love me. I don’t even like me on a good day. This is much better now than it used to be. But so just to see you be able to go from where you were to That is incredible Jorja.
Jorja Jamison 14:06
Yeah, this is it’s a really interesting story. I have a memory. This is how deep and hardwired shame was into me. When I was a little kid, you know, often little kids have invisible friends, you know that sort of thing?
Margaret: Sure.
Jorja Jamison: I had an invisible friend. But this invisible friend was my twin. That when I was born, I was actually one of two my mom had had twins. And one of us was good. And one of us was bad. And they had to kill the bad one. And they messed up and killed the wrong one. And that I had to pretend to be the good one for the rest of my life. So, by the time I was six or seven, I had this belief about myself. And you know, how can you, how can you live with that as your you know, a core principle?
Margaret: Yeah.
Jorja Jamison: And so, for me being in recovery has been this journey of discovering, actually a pretty nice person, I’m pretty good, I’m pretty fair, and pretty loving, and want the best for people. And the, if you read in the Big Book, appendix to the spiritual awakening, I would always define spiritual awakening spiritual awakening looks different, different. But it ultimately says, it brings about a personality change, that should be consistent with recovery. And I have had a personality change. I have gone from 100%, fear-based shame based, terrified of life, to one that enjoys life that feels connected, that has so much meaning that it’s a personality change. So ergo, if I’ve had a personality change, somewhere along the way, I had a spiritual awakening.
Margaret: You bet.
Jorja Jamison: I can’t tell you when and where it happened.
Margaret 16:02
There was no burning bush? Didn’t see it?
Jorja Jamison: No burning bush.
Margaret: It’s in the transformation.
Jorja Jamison: Yeah.
Margaret: So, I’m curious, this comes from me, not so much for the listeners, but as a healer, which I don’t love the word because, I love the word because I think we are in a healing process as much as we support people in their healing process. But like you, I don’t like the pedestal piece. Did you fear that your recovery would hurt your chops in your professional skills and your wonderful work? You do?
Jorja Jamison 16:39
What do you mean by that?
Margaret 16:42
My biggest fear. One of them was if I got into recovery, and I did this work, I would lose whatever worked for me for so long to fake it and be good at what I did. Like I thought it would somehow change me in a way that I couldn’t do my work effectively. It doesn’t make rational sense to me now. But that was a big fear for me.
Jorja Jamison 17:06
So, this is at the time, this is the plague of the person with anxiety, that if I’m not anxious about everything, then I’m not going to be prepared for the worst at all time. So don’t take my anxiety away from me, because it keeps me safe. Right. So that same feeling of this, this drive to have a mask is what makes me successful,
Margaret: Right.
Jorja Jamison: So don’t take away the mask, because otherwise I won’t be successful.
Margaret: Right?
Jorja Jamison: But this is the this is the journey of recovery that we really discover. It’s not about that at all, that it’s about. So much, in particular for health care providers, so much of our lives has been about achievement. And so much of our lives has been about getting the next accolade, the next title, the next license, the next certification. And all those things are great. The shift is when we’re in addiction, we think we need those things to feel good. in recovery, we can have those things, but we don’t need them. And we can be content and quiet in our own little space, and their own little thoughts in our own little head. And don’t need to seek that outside validation, which really is and I’ve been in meetings where we actually talk about that desire for a claim as part of the disease.
Margaret 18:33
If there wasn’t enough food to make me feel good, if there wasn’t enough people pleasing to make me feel good. There had to be enough attaboys out there somewhere in some capacity to make me feel good enough in my skin when I thought I was a fraud and a failure or unlovable or damaged goods. You know, I resonate with a lot of the terms you use as you wrote this book. And share with us today. Impostor syndrome is talked about a great deal in our society right now. You hear it in a lot of rooms, business coaching, clinical work all over the place. You describe it as being a part of your journey just feeling like your imposter. You touched on it with your schooling like it was a fluke I got in well, I’m sure it was more than that. Jorja, they saw something in you may not have identified in yourself and saw value in bringing you into the program. How are you today? Is that still show up?
Jorja Jamison 19:26
The imposter syndrome? No. I think sometimes there’s the battle of the mask was such a way of life. It’s hard not to slide it on. And not to pretend like everything is okay. So, when I lost my father in the spring and the end of our semester was crazy, lots of stuff was going on. When I burned out, I mean I completely burned out. And part of me was like no, you can’t, you can’t burn out. You’re the professor the professor teaches people not to burn out not doesn’t you know there’s a burn out for himself. And so there was that sort of urge of like, keep it hidden, keep it hidden, keep it hidden. And then I was just like, why this is what’s happened. And I am human, like, you know everything else. And there might be value and letting my students see me burn out and have to acknowledge it and then recover from it. And that is sort of the, the biggest thing that I can teach them how to be, you know, human in this field. And that’s where the lesson is not in never breaking down.
Margaret 20:41
Yeah. And I do use that frame. A lot with families, families, fear sharing with their loved ones, challenges stressors, because they think that that will make them blah, blah, blah, make them use, make them relapse, make them angry, make them unable to cope. And the benefits of role modeling out loud a person’s humanity and recovery, and how great that can be to the person they fear being that way. So, I appreciate you sharing that. And I also appreciate, and I think our families will, how we how instinctively that slides on and to not beat ourselves up for that. Recognize it, make the next recovery step to not let it slide back on or slide a little less far on.
Jorja Jamison 21:29
Yeah, that being open and vulnerable is not our natural state. We really have to work hard to do, to get ourselves there. But that yeah, it’s almost this automatic unconscious process. And a big part of my recovery. It’s not even been around use around it has been about intercepting or interrupting that pattern when it starts to happen.
Margaret 21:56
My guess, though, when you were using that wouldn’t have been what you thought it was going to be about?
Jorja Jamison 22:01
Nothing at all. Yeah, I had no clue.
Margaret 22:05
Couldn’t imagine not using How would you possible?
Jorja Jamison 22:08
It’s not that I think it was more like I couldn’t imagine being this seen and open. I couldn’t imagine being this broken in front of other people. That was that was the thing that stopped me every time.
Margaret 22:26
I can relate. And I also think who have I admired the most of my whole life. The people who were real, authentic, broken, willing to show their vulnerability, and yet I could not find the courage or the willingness to do it.
Jorja Jamison 22:41
It is one of the absolute paradoxes of being human and being in recovery. These two completely opposing things.
Margaret: Agreed.
Outro: Boy we covered a lot of ground today and I’m continually impressed with Jorja’s ways of bringing complex disease into very relatable fine point, evidence of her gifts and talents as a professor combined with her personal and professional experience. Come back next week when we dive further into the healing for the helpers.
Margaret 23:22
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website
This is Margaret Swift Thompson. Until next time, please take care of you!
