Today I am excited to introduce you to Jorja Jamison. Jorja has written a book called ‘Wounded Healing, The Art and Soul of Survival,’ which will be published this fall – you are getting a sneak peak.
Jorja gives one of the clearest descriptions of powerlessness I have heard as she shares the story of addiction within her family, her own personal surrender to recovery. This conversation stirred many memories and feelings up for me as we shared some painful similarities while working in the treatment field.
Meet Jorja Jamison.
embracefamilyrecovery #recovery #addiction #addictionfiction #jorjajamison #woundedhealing #addictionrecovery #addictionawareness #addictiontreatment #addictions #familyrecovery #familyrecoverycoach #familyrecoverycoaching #familyaddiction #familyaddictionrecovery #recoverysupport #recoverysupportgroup #recoverysupportservices #womenpodcaster #podcast #addictionpodcast #recoverypodcast #recoverystories #recoverycommunity #YouTubechannel
See full transcript here.
Margaret 00:01
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Intro: Welcome back today is going to be a different episode series that really touched my heart because I connected so much to my guest’s story in many ways and as we go through the three episodes you’ll see why I’m excited to introduce you to Jorja Jamison. Jorja has written a book which will be published this fall, you’re all getting a sneak peak, a window into this incredibly powerful book that will be coming out. Jorja gives one of the clearest descriptions of powerlessness that have ever heard as she shares the story of addiction within her family and her own personal surrender to recovery.
This conversation stirred many painful memories and feelings up for me as we shared some similarities while working in the treatment field. Meet Jorja Jamison.
00:51
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast
Margaret 01:08
I am so thrilled Jorja to have you on embrace family recovery. I think your message is so vital for us as professionals to hear, but also for families and people who have this illness to hear, because we are human. And that comes through loud and clear. But Jorja Jamison, what is going to be the title of your book? Have you finalized that? I know Wounded Healer is that going to be it?
Jorja Jamison 01:34
So, the title I would like to have it is ‘Wounded Healing, the Art and Soul of Survival.‘ Wounded healing in particular, because I wanted to have that active healing part that it’s not just that some individuals are wounded healers, but that were actively wounded and actively healing all at the same time.
Margaret 01:56
I love that it is about action, recovery is in general about action. So, Jorja, if you were to give an intro to the listeners who are primarily loved ones, but can be many, many people who are joining the podcast, which is so exciting. How would you introduce yourself, what would be the descriptor you would present as your introduction.
Jorja Jamison 02:15
So, I am a licensed psychologist in the state of Minnesota, and I work as a professor at the Hazelden Betty Ford Graduate School of Addiction Studies. And then I also identify as a person in lifelong recovery. Who’s had my own journey and my own journey as a family member for you know, as many of us do.
Margaret 02:35
Yeah, And are you comfortable with sharing who your qualifier is that you identify being a family member?
Jorja Jamison 02:42
Pretty much anybody in my family would be a qualifier. Certainly, however, we just lost my father to this disease last spring. And so that’s the most recent one.
Margaret 02:55
I’m so sorry. Thank you, from the lens of family, being the family before we get into your own journey. When is your first recollection of like this isn’t what everybody does. This isn’t, ” normal?” Do you remember what age?
Jorja Jamison 03:15
I probably didn’t really reflect on what was normal until I was in my 20s. Because when you’re a child it is whatever is around as normal. But I remember some time in my 20s thinking, you know how every Sunday morning we used to get up and it was like the thing to go around and collect all the empty beer cans that were scattered on the deck and throughout the house. Maybe that’s not what most families did. Yeah, that was something that was different in our family.
Margaret 03:45
I remember my youngest because I am in recovery also. And we share some common parts of our story. It was actually uncanny to read your book, Jorja and hear things and connect to things that were so similar to my own journey. There are obviously differences, but I was touched by some of the similarities. And I remember my daughter going to a friend’s house for dinner, and a sleepover. And they had a glass of wine. And she came home and was pretty freaked out not because they did anything wrong, but because it was so not normal for her to see it. And I think that’s true for a lot of children in these family situations on either extreme or anywhere in the middle. We don’t know what isn’t normal outside our house. But if we go to other children’s houses when we’re little, boy, do we get exposure to things that make us wonder what is going on, what is happening?
03:47
Jorja Jamison: Well, I think part of it was because anything that felt abnormal, we were told no this is normal. And so, there was sort of that message that that came along with it, that this is what every family does. This is what most weekends look like for most people.
Margaret 04:56
Got it. What led you to take this step at this point in your career, because you have a very respectful career, you’ve done so well for yourself and talk about going against the odds, you know, of, of what you were raised, under and around. What made you write this book?
05:16
Jorja Jamison: Yeah, it’s really incredible, that if you had gone back 10 years, and said, you know, one day all this stuff you’re going through, not only are you going to be admitting that these things happen, but you’re going to be talking about them openly. And without any shame, I would have, you would have just been an alien to me, for you know, most of my using career, it was all about keeping the secret, keeping the shame, keeping the appearance. And the thought of any truth getting out would have been, it was just like, you’d want to disappear into a puddle. And then probably about five years into my recovery. I had heard enough feedback from people in groups, I’m a member of a couple of 12 Step groups. And I had heard enough feedback from some of my fellows, who had said, you know, we love it when you share this story or that story, that sort of stuff. And so, I started to kind of think maybe I do have a book in me. And then the pandemic happened. And all of a sudden, it was like, you know what, I’m going to take a year, and just write and see what comes out. And this is what came out. I mean, it just came pouring out. For a few years, I kept a little note on my phone, here’s different chapter titles or different things to kind of organize. And then so I started there, and then things just kept building chapters almost wrote themselves. And then it just really did come pouring out of me.
Margaret 06:57
How did it feel to write it was that different than telling because you speak at meetings, you share it in your story, probably share through your teaching, different parts of your story? How did it feel to write it. Was a different?
Jorja Jamison 07:09
It felt very quiet, and very honest. And it felt very, very whole. For me, the biggest hurdles in my recovery was overcoming shame. And once I had overcome the shame, it was very easy for me to talk about things that I’ve been through. But there’s also this line that I’m going to be blending. Because most people don’t publicly know my story, this is going to be you know, more and more people are going to publicly know my story. And so this will be more unveiling more, you know, sort of merging professional and personal life and, you know, sort of all this stuff. But it just feels, I don’t know, it just feels very, very quiet. Very content. It’s not that it’s, it’s not easy. No. But it is it just feels right.
And for me that’s been the biggest gift of recovery is I don’t have to live in shame anymore. I don’t have to you know think I’m the worst thing that lived anymore.
Margaret 08:03
What a great feeling that must be? Right
Jorja Jamison 08:05
It’s incredible, you know for decades of my life I’ve never ever felt that way.
Margaret 08:05
I can relate. I know that people listening are screaming, how do you do it? How did you overcome shame? That’s a big one for many people, whether family or person who identifies as being a recovering person in the disease model. How’d you, do it?
08:42
Jorja Jamison: Yeah, and it’s really interesting, because there’s a chapter in the book where I actually say, I think I’ve been diagnosed with 10 or 11, different mental health diagnoses, from depression, to bipolar to opioid use disorder, anxiety, all kinds of other stuff. But what I really think I had is shame disorder. And that I really think that what was wrong with me was I was so enveloped with shame, I could not see myself and could not interact with the world. And so, for me, it really was a process. It was just the long slogging daily process. And I’d say probably probably about three years into abstinence. I remember I was sitting at my desk at work. And I had a couple of home groups at the time, but none of them read what’s called ‘The Promises’ in Alcoholics Anonymous, the 12 statements of what comes true and sort of all that stuff. And I remember sitting at my desk and all of a sudden, I had this feeling of like, life, life’s not so hard anymore. Like, it actually is kind of pleasant. And like this gray cloud was always around, me. It’s not I feel bright sunshine now. And I quickly googled the 12 promises and I read the 12 statements. And that was like, holy crap, every single one of them. It was right there. And so somehow, in the work that I had done a really intensive individual therapy really intensive on substance use treatment, and really intensive 12 step recovery. Things just finally started to clear and make sense. But I think the biggest thing was that I finally was honest, I wasn’t hiding any part of me. And as long as I hid in the little part of me, that was enough for the shame to hold on. But when I was just that finally willing to be as broken and busted a person in front of other people, that was what for me was the key to healing.
Margaret 10:57
This podcast is made possible by listeners like you.
Bumper: Anyone enjoy book clubs? I do for a few reasons. I read books that I would not normally choose to read and I really value listening to other people who’ve read books share their experience with what they learned, read, and heard.
So, in that vein I’m beginning the Embrace Family Recovery free virtual Book Club starting Thursday April 18th at noon Eastern Standard Time for anyone who wants to join.
OH yeah what’s the book?
The book is ‘Worthy’ by Jamie Kern Lima I chose this after learning more about Jamie’s story, feeling a connection with her, and wanting to eradicate the core belief and story in my head that has always said I’m not enough,
This book club is for anyone, and I welcome anyone who wants to dive into the lies that we have let stop us from believing we are worthy. Check out my show notes for links to my website embracefamilyrecovery.com to learn more and register.
Also really cool, I have happened to come across an extra copy of the book ‘Worthy’ which is really hard to find right now as they’re selling out.
So, I will send to the 10th person who registers for this Book Club their free copy of ‘Worthy!’
I can’t wait to see you on April 18th! Let’s get ready to do a deep dive into the book worthy on a monthly basis.
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast. Can you relate to what you’re hearing? Never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.
Margaret: How many years in, to abstinence?
Jorja Jamison 12:47
So, this September will be eight.
Margaret 12:50
And how many in? And congratulations. That is no small feat. How many years in did you get to that point of the promises?
Jorja Jamison 12:58
Probably about year three? Yeah, it was probably the third year.
Margaret 13:01
That’s important. It can be different for everybody. But I think it’s important to share that it’s a journey. Right? It doesn’t just it’s not an on off switch, which a lot of families struggle with, they don’t understand that.
Jorja Jamison 13:11
I like to think of it is more like if you ever go to a theater show, and you know how they have the lights that sort of are always zooming around, and that the spotlights that are kind of zooming around, I kind of feel like the promises and happiness are about like the lights are always going to be zooming around. It’s about finding the moments where they’re all focused on the same thing. But they’re always going to be moving in and out, up and down, you know, all around. And it’s it’s really just about recognizing when they all come together. Just appreciating that.
Margaret 13:42
Yeah, it’s a great way to say it. I feel like in my journey, I was always expecting wanting recovery to look like Disney world every day. And that was a huge letdown when I finally got in, not because what I have is not great. I had this delusion that I was supposed to be joyous, happy and excited and wonderful every day of every year. And that was such a lie, my disease told me. So, I really appreciate that visual of when those spotlights come together because we couldn’t even feel those when we were using.
Jorja Jamison 14:16
No, no, we were you know, in the dark in a closet downstairs, you know, like that was our existance.
Margaret 14:22
Right?
Jorja Jamison 14:22
We didn’t even know there were spotlights.
Margaret 14:24
Right?
Jorja Jamison 14:25
But yeah, for me, it really is that I have found that the promises that contentment, that happiness are not something you can strive for or work for. But if you work for basic principles of recovery, the honesty, the openness, the willingness, if that is what you set your sights on then the others manifest on their own.
Margaret 14:56
And like you said, when you read it, you’re almost shocked because they were all happening. It wasn’t a conscious driving for anyone in particular, you read through it and went, wow, look at the change. Did you feel the same way I did Jorja that as you were going on the journey of recovery, you were kind of the last one to notice the change that others who cared for you were close to, you start to see it, maybe and were able to recognize it before you were?
Jorja Jamison 15:19
I don’t think I had that. Because I’ve always had such a mask, I always had such an outward facing mask, that I was pretty good at fooling people, which is one of the reasons my disease went as long as it did. And for me, it really was that inner reflection. It is the same thing. We see this all the time with people who are coming into recovery. Like we see their beautiful souls, we see just how awesome and special they are, and they can’t see it for themselves. And I imagine mine was the same way that I you know, sort of had that experience as well. But for me to actually feel that internalized that not only am I okay, I’m actually a pretty good person. And I am equipped to deal with whatever life brings me. Like that was just transformational.
Margaret 16:13
Yeah absolutely. You also are a very strong person, a survivor, you have tenacity you have fought for life, and accomplished a great deal, despite a lot of odds. Where do you think that comes from within you?
Jorja Jamison 16:30
You know, it’s interesting, I’m not even sure. You know, this is this is what I teach my students and I teach my clients. Stubbornness and perseverance are the exact same thing. They’re just used in different ways. But they’re both about stick to itiveness. And stubbornness is when you sort of use it for ill. And perseverance is when you use it for good. But that stick to itiveness. I think I come from a long line of hard workers, the really hard work ethic. And I think that’s probably where it begins. Yeah, I’m not even sure where it actually comes from, but most of my family has it.
Margaret 17:08
Yeah. I think that the way you just described it, also, how it feeds into addiction. Because we are stubborn in that realm, too. Right? I mean, that, you mentioned that your mask afforded or allowed for your disease to go a lot longer because it was well intact, people wouldn’t know. What was your final awakening? I don’t know, if you call it a bottom, whatever it was for you that you said, whoa, something has to give.
Jorja Jamison 17:39
Yeah, I think it was just the inner misery for. So, for three years, I was part of a program here in the state of Minnesota that monitors health care providers, for people who are in recovery or need help. And it’s a three-year program. There’s quarterly reports from your therapist, from your psychiatrists, from your boss. There’s random drug testing, there’s all kinds of stuff that that’s part of it. And I had figured out a way or I just was incredibly lucky that I was able to use sporadically through that. And then I came off of that program. And I literally drove from my last drug test, drove home and fished out the six pills of opiates that I had collected over the previous two years, and took them all at once. I hadn’t even been off the program for five minutes. And sort of had to do that. But what it did was because I was no longer being monitored, and these reports weren’t being filed, I finally thought I could get honest with my therapist. And so, the next visit in for therapy I went in, I made sure all the releases were revoked, that anything I was about to say was not going to get reported back to anyone. And then I told her everything, and still had to work probably for another four months, because that was April and it was September, another four or five months before I was ready to tell the second person which turned out to be, it’s my eventual wife, but there was something in me that knew there is no telling one other person, I’m going to have to tell everyone and it was a process of getting ready. I think somewhere in my physical being knew that it was going to be a really hard road and just maybe wanted to give me a few months to kind of prepare and shore up and then do it.
Margaret 19:39
I think of all of the people out there who delusionally believe it should be easy. Just stop. Don’t, don’t do it. Can’t you see what it’s doing to your life? I think of the length that you describe going to, to hide it, to use it despite the misery, the internal pain, the shame, the fear of getting caught the fear of being found out, the thrill of getting away all of the stuff that goes into it. It’s exhausting, and soul destroying,
Jorja Jamison 20:18
It really is.
Margaret 20:20
And if not an example of powerlessness101, I don’t know what is. The description that I resonate with is our addiction is a pathological relationship with a substance or behavior that supersedes every other human need we have. That’s not something you just switch off. It’s impossible. When you were using and working in the field and teaching, can you give us a window into how that was for you as a human being?
Jorja Jamison 20:55
You know, I actually don’t remember a lot of emotions connected to it, because I think I was completely cut off from my emotions.
Margaret 21:02
Sure
Jorja Jamison 21:03
You know, if the three rules of an alcoholic family system are, don’t talk, don’t feel don’t trust. I mean, I was operating under those rules, long after I left my family. But I just remember, it was just this, feeling of no way out, this feeling of the worst thing in the world would be to be found out. And, you know, I had to protect my image at all costs. Which is interesting, because that really does come from my family of origin, that outwardly we were the well-adjusted happy, successful family. And so, I mean, I got lots and lots of lessons of how to pretend that you’re doing okay.
Margaret 21:51
Right?
Jorja Jamison 21:52
It just, it really is it just became a way of life. I didn’t even know that the life I live now is possible. And I worked in this field for over two decades. But I didn’t think it was possible for me.
Margaret 22:06
Yeah, a similarity we share I was walking the halls of Hazelden working on extended care and I was face first in food every time a client was in my office I was preoccupied with when I was going to eat, but somehow is different for me than what I was working with my clients to try and achieve in their sobriety and recovery. And I remember feeling here I am in the most wonderful treatment center, seeing these miracles in front of me. If anyone ever knew what I was doing, I would be ruined. And why can’t I? Like that uniqueness? Like I have to be different. It’s not going to work for me, not even letting myself see food addiction as legitimate, like chemical dependency. That’s a whole other issue. But the fear of being found out, the fear of being this fraud, the fact that I could pull it off without reading the damn Big Book, because I was so shocked when I read it and food jumped off the page at me, I shut that book in my training year at Hazelden.
Jorja Jamison 23:08
Oh, that’s hilarious. So, and mine was actually a little bit different because I entered 12 step recovery back in 2004. And had been an active member of 12 step recovery. Pretty much since then, I don’t think I’ve ever gone more than three weeks without missing a meeting. Even during my whole career using. I used for the first 11 years that I was in the program; I couldn’t stop using then. But I knew the Big Book inside now I knew all the principles. I knew how to coach people through it, I knew how to do all these things. But there was this sort of block of that it’s not going to work for me. I’m too damaged. I’m too broken. And so the best I can hope for is to slog through life with this outward facing mask. And that is the best I could hope for.
Margaret 24:15
It’s painful. It’s painful to hear. It’s painful to imagine, it’s painful to remember.
Outro: “Not feeling recovery is possible for me” it’s hard. This is what the disease of diction told me for decades. What a lie it is. Come back next week and hear more of Jorja’s experience, strength, and hope as we move into her recovery journey.
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story.
Please find resources on my website,
This is Margaret Swift Thompson. Until next time, please take care of you!
