Join us as Harry continues the story of his gambling addiction from last week. In today’s episode, Harry shares his lowest moment (which comes with a suicide trigger warning), his moment of clarity, and three critical conversations that helped him progress toward recovery.
Harry also shares with us his recovery journey and how his story has become the least interesting thing about him.
When seeking help for gambling addiction, Harry shares the following resource, Internationally Certified Gambling Counselor Directory
Learn more about Ethos Treatment
embracefamilyrecovery #podcast #gamblingaddiction #HarryLevant #NUdoctoratestudent #recovery #addiction #lawyersconcernedforlawyers #addictionrecovery #ethostreatment #addictionawareness #addictiontreatment #addictions #familyrecovery #familyrecoverycoach #familyrecoverycoaching #familyaddiction #familyaddictionrecovery #recoverysupport #recoverysupportgroup #recoverysupportservices
See full transcript below.
00:01
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now, here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Intro: Welcome back! Today we return to Harry Levant sharing his story. It progresses to really dark places. Trigger warning for all listening, we will talk of suicide and suicidal attempts so take care of yourself with that topic. In the last episode Harry shared how his first bet was at the age of 14 years old and that progressed to a vicious cycle of gambling addiction he could not get out of on his own.
Let’s get back to Harry and go further on his story.
00:50
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast
Margaret 01:08
So, everything culminated?
Harry Levant 01:09
Everything culminates. And one of the things that also happened in and around this period of time. The state of Pennsylvania, decided to open full-fledged casinos. And there was a casino that opened right outside the Center City, Philadelphia in the city itself. And I started going there. And I started going there and going there. And going there.
Margaret 01:37
Were you’re negotiating with yourself on the drive of whether you would or wouldn’t go today.
Harry Levant 01:41
That comes in a bit. And actually, the negotiation would be when I would leave on the drive home, where I was negotiating, where there was a spot on what we call in Philadelphia the Schuylkill Expressway, where I could drive into a wall and just end my pain. And while it would be extraordinary suffering for my children, at that time, in my mind, it would end up being better for them, because what had become of me was, was worthless at that point.
And just that quickly, I would think of a way I could get my hands on more money and get back there the next day. And maybe be able do something about this.
So, I was going in 2013, to this particular casino, four /five days a week. My law practice had essentially completely fallen apart, I was still putting a suit on in the morning to try and make it look like I had some place to be, someplace to go. And very rarely did I. That was one of the myriad of things. As I said, there were a number of things personally and professionally, that all were collapsing at the same time. And what I would do is I would go to this casino. But I wouldn’t go to the casino for an hour or two, I would typically be there for 10, 11,12 hours at a time.
It’s important that the listeners understand that while I was going to the casino, I didn’t have any money anymore. Now what I had as a lawyer was access to other people’s money. And I started doing the one thing that no lawyer can ever do. I started moving money around that didn’t belong to me. And using that money to gamble with. So, I am now stealing from my clients, my family members, friends. I wasn’t a lawyer who had some big practice. I knew all my clients, my clients knew me. I’m stealing from the clients, the friends and the family who are closest to me.
Because what will a person caught in addiction do to keep their action going, whatever it takes, and the easiest way to explain the money part that I hope anyone listening and struggling will understand or a family member will understand.
As I said earlier, gambling addiction is not about money. Money is to a gambling addict what a needle is to a heroin addict. It’s the way you get the action in to your system.
I am going to the casino with other people’s money. And the casino was very, very happy to take this money. In fact, what I would do. I would get a check from a financial person who made access to this check available. I couldn’t cash the check, I didn’t have any money left in the bank, I didn’t have anything to cash it against. I would get in typically a taxicab, take the 10-minute ride to the casino. And when I got to the casino, I would turn this check over to the casino. And they would make available to me the equivalent amount in funds to gamble with in the casino.
Margaret: Wow!
Harry: The one thing I didn’t have access to was cash. And the casino was more than happy to eliminate that requirement, they would take the cheque and they would deposit that check into their own bank account. At this point in time in my life, they knew quite well that I couldn’t get credit, because frankly, the way I like to describe it, is at that point in my life, my cholesterol numbers were higher than my credit score. My life was spiraling out of control.
Now this went on for all of the second half of 2013. And in early 2014, there was a night that I have a recollection of, I was in the casino, a table supervisor, not a pit boss, just for anyone whose been inside a casino. Someone who stood behind the blackjack tables, monitoring the games, came over to me and said to me, you know, Harry, they should really put a plaque upstairs with your picture on it. You kept the lights on here single handedly for us last year. And at that brief second, it brought me out of what’s he talking about. And a short time later, I went and did something I hadn’t done. Because this is not about money. This is about the way the product makes you feel. I went and looked. And I could not believe what I had lost and what I had stolen it. I couldn’t fathom it.
Margaret 06:53
I think that’s a very, very powerful point for families and loved ones. Having worked in treatment centers for decades, we would have clients do step one inventories where they list out financially, they’d list out all the areas of their life, their disease impacted. And many clients would look at those numbers and be like, how did I not see it? Or recognize it or know it before putting it on paper? And family members are like how do you not know that, when you’re living in it? So, help them understand that Harry. When you’re in that place, and you have that moment of clarity, and you look and you’re like holy crap, how did this happen?
Harry Levant 07:32
Margaret, it’s not about the money. The money is simply the vehicle. You hear in treatment, people often say regarding drinking, one drink is too many, 100 is not enough. Gambling addiction is about the way the product makes the person feel. My numbers are, oh, ah wow, they’re interesting for five minutes. They’re no more or less painful than someone who lost their last $50, they were going to buy groceries with tonight. This is one of the reasons why in treatment, people will have to take individual accounts. People have to as part of the recovery process take full inventory of the damage they’ve done to themselves and others. But we don’t sit around in a treatment room telling the war stories and how much you lost. That’s a ticket to relapse. That’s not what treatment and recovery are all about. So again, there may be someone listening to this right now, who is struggling because they just bought a $25 scratch off ticket and they can’t stop buying scratch off tickets. It’s the pain of the disease, the way it keeps you in action without regard to the harm that it’s doing. It’s not about the raw numbers.
Margaret 08:54
Agreed. I just think it’s important to tear this up a little bit more.
Harry: Sure
Margaret: So, you said earlier, I could run a trial I could do all this, I couldn’t balance a checkbook. Do you think that lack of capacity to look at the finances and I know it’s not about money, But in the long run, one of the consequences is got to be seeing how much money is just blowing out the door. Were you not looking at it because of shame, denial. Was it tied into that at all?
Harry Levant 09:28
A lot of what I understand come to realize was at the epicenter of my addiction was a tremendous amount of emotional immaturity. I was the equivalent of a 12-year-old standing at the end of the crap table wanting dad or someone like him to come rescue me from my pain.
When we talk about the money and the inventory. It was as improper for me to take the first dollar that didn’t belong to me, as it was the last dollar that didn’t belong to me. But when you get caught in addiction, I think the best way to explain it to your audience, if what you’re asking me is, did I have any thought that what I was doing was okay? No.
Margaret 11:22
Makes sense. I think that if we don’t know, we don’t know, though. I mean, my addiction is food addiction, I lost and gained over 100 pounds, I don’t know how many times in my life. Never did I have a true awareness of that, until I looked at a photograph. And it showed me the evidence or until I got on a scale in a doctor’s office. And it showed me evidence. Until like, there was a level of denial of the destruction to my body that I couldn’t identify for myself. It didn’t stop me. I’ll grant you that. And I hear that loud and clear. But it’s like when I got into recovery, and I was doing that inventory and looking at my history, and I had to put my photo history together. It was shocking, that I had lived through these highs, lows, extremes, damage to self damage to others, theft, things that I had done to get what I needed, enough of, I thought were believed to my toes. But I couldn’t see it while I was in it.
Harry Levant 12:19
You can’t. And I think that is part of what is meant by the crucial importance, regardless of what theoretical orientation you bring to treatment and recovery. All of treatment or recovery, regardless of your approach begins with a recognition that you are powerless over something that is taking control and is taking you to a place where your life is unmanageable.
You can’t see that until you surrender. The disease prevents you from looking at, you may know it, you may know what I’m doing is causing harm. But the powerlessness of addiction. And this is really important for family members to understand. It’s not that your loved one wants to be this way, it’s that they’re powerless at the present time to get out of it. And they need your help, to be able to say, the three most courageous words in treatment, I need help. They are the three most courageous words. And they are nearly impossible to say when you’re caught in it. And I tell clients all the time, you can’t think your way out of addiction.
Margaret: No
Harry: You cannot.
Margaret: Tried that.
Harry: Yeah, you can think your way deeper into it, to think your way out of it.
Margaret 13:45
Amen. So back to your story. I keep interrupting what you said I could so.
Harry Levant 13:49
Please, I prefer to do it this way. Because you would hear things that need to be amplified, and you will hear things that we can perhaps communicate in a better, stronger, more intimate way to the audience. That’s why we’re doing this.
Margaret: Correct.
Harry: So, there are very, very, very few absolutes in the world. And there are virtually none in the world of mental health and addiction treatment. With that said, I will tell you an absolute right now.
If someone caught in the grips of a pathological gambling addiction, says the following four words. I have a plan. You can be rock solid certain the plan is not a very good one. And mine was no different.
In early 2014, when I did begin to realize just how devastating this addiction is. I came up with a plan. I had done virtually all of my self-destructive gambling in Philadelphia. But this plan would not take place in Philadelphia, for reasons that will become apparent to our listeners in a minute. This plan involved going to Atlantic City, that my casino host has set me up a room at a casino hotel in Atlantic City, I said I have a plan. I came up with a way to get my hands on one last batch of funds.
And my plan was, I was going to go to Atlantic City. And I was going to gamble and get this thing fixed, which was completely impossible. But if I couldn’t get it fixed, I wasn’t going to leave Atlantic City alive, I would take my life in Atlantic City.
And this part is a little bit more difficult to talk about
Margaret: Of course,
Harry: It was going to be Atlantic City, because I wasn’t going to take my life in the city where my children live. And again, I can only tell you what my thought process was at the time. I don’t look back on this as though it made any sense,
Margaret: right?
Harry: So, I know that Friday exists because I’m here with you today. But I went to Atlantic City on a Thursday. I do not remember the Friday. I just don’t remember anything about it. I know that it took place. But I don’t remember it. I have some recollection of Thursday. And the really the next thing I remember was being alone, on a Saturday, late afternoon, in a hotel room. With windows all the way around all you can see wherever you look is the ocean and the bay. And I had built a noose. And I sat down at the desk to write a note to my children. To try and explain to them that which would obviously not ever really be explainable.
Margaret: Right.
Harry: But it wasn’t going to do this without finding some way to say goodbye. And I kept trying to write that note. And I would stop, and I would put my head in the noose, go back to the note. And I tried for quite a while just going back and forth. And a lot of people in recovery talk about a moment of clarity. Not everybody has them and they’re not mandatory. But I had, in all of this haze. I had a moment of complete and total clarity. I didn’t want to die. My addiction wanted me to die. It was done with me. It had taken my heart; it had taken my soul and it taken my conscience. It had taken any and all parts of me. I wouldn’t be gone; it would live on and go impact somebody else.
And I picked up the phone and I made two phone calls.
The first one to some friends to come get me. And ironically, the one thing they asked me, they said get out of the hotel room go back to the casino. They figured I couldn’t hurt myself in public, in the casino. And the other was the first of a series of conversations that would take place over a few years. That sort of relate to your lead in, to this discussion today. How I found my way ultimately to become a therapist and an advocate to bring reform, and restriction, and regulation to the gambling industry.
I called one 800 – gambler. Now, I cannot emphasize strongly enough how impaired and unwell I was. Hopefully the story as I related it to you.
Margaret: Paints the picture,
Harry: Paints the picture and paints a picture for your audience. But I was as unwell as a person can be as unwell as I was, I will never forget what they said to me in the call to 1-800-gambler. They said we can pay for about five sessions for you to meet with a gambling counselor. But that’s really all that we do. What we do is we work with the gambling industry to help them spot people who might have a gambling problem.
As unwell I was, I put in the back of my mind there is something really wrong here. This is supposed to be the folks who are working to help people who have a gambling problem. What do you mean you work with the gambling industry to spot people? Anyone could have spotted me, and I teased for you earlier that I would go to the casino early in the day.
Let me paint the picture here. I would typically go to the casino around 11 o’clock in the morning dressed in a suit, and I would see casino personnel. I was known to all of the casino personnel, all of them. I would see the people who were finishing work, the 4am to 12 noon shift. And I would say hello to them. And they would then go on home, presumably to have lunch or dinner, spend time with their family at some point go to sleep, so they could get up and come back to work the next day at 4am. And many a day, I would see those same people when they came back to work the next day at 4am.
The difference is they had gone home, enjoyed their time with their family, gone to bed, got up the next day, changed their clothes, come back to work. And I was still sitting there in the same suit they saw me in at 11 o’clock the morning before. And that happened on a regular multi day basis.
20:52
This podcast is made possible by listeners like you.
Bumper: So, on April 19th once again we will be having the Embrace Family Recovery Coaching Group. It has been growing steadily and is still such a lovely, intimate connection between people sharing their experience and hope with each other and giving each other support wherever they are on the recovery journey with their loved one.
On Wednesday, the 19th when we meet again Sandy Swenson the author of ‘The Joey Song’ will be joining us.
Sandy will talk about her recovery journey and talk about the power we do have when it comes to our recovery.
So, if you’re interested in joining the Embrace Family Recovery Coaching Group on Wednesday the 19th at 8:00 PM Eastern Standard Time please go to my link in the show notes and sign up to join the coaching group, only people who are registered will be able to attend as it is a closed group. Look forward to seeing you then.
21:38
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast. Can you relate to what you’re hearing? Never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.
Margaret 21:49
So, Harry.
Harry: Yes,
Margaret: From a family’s perspective. How did you explain being missing that long from your life?
Harry Levant 21:58
I lied. I lied. I hurt my family, I hurt my kids, I lied.
Margaret 22:03
Your disease, hurt your family and hurt your kids your disease created the lies in you.
Harry Levant 22:08
It did. I did not sit and intentionally come up with this as a gift to give to my children. But at the same time their father lied. Gambling is a disease filled, filled with lies and deceit. And the reason I say it that way, I think it is for my children who are now wonderful, young adults to express how they feel about that.
The reality is that the disease of addiction, the disease of gambling addiction, robbed from them, as we talked about impact on families, the father that they were accustomed to? And I was, you’re absolutely correct, I was powerless in the grips of that disease to stop that process. But to answer your question, how did it happen? It happened with lies. And the people who are being lied to, don’t want to face the magnitude of this either. It’s just, remember I said at the start of this, is a silent addiction. It’s very, very difficult.
Margaret 23:24
And with all addictions, there’s the family side of loving the person, believing the best and the person, wanting to believe what’s coming out of their mouth. Thinking you’re losing your mind because you’re hearing, seeing behavior that doesn’t add up. But yet you also hear and see the things you want to hear. Denial’s true on both sides of the coin of the stillness.
Harry Levant 23:49
This is why I don’t speak for my adult children. When I have these conversations.
I damaged many relationships in the grips of addiction and out of love and respect for my children. I want them to be able to characterize it for themselves.
For our audience, make no mistake, that the disease of addiction, as we said earlier is a family disease. Everyone gets caught up in what is happening. And we overlook that pain of the affected others way too often.
The statement made to me that we work with the gambling industry stuck in the back of my mind. It was one of series of three conversations over a period of years with three very different people in places that significantly informed my journey to ultimately become a mental health therapist and addictions counselor.
I went to rehab. I came out of rehab and with the support of a wonderful organization called Lawyers Concerned for Lawyers.
Lawyers Concerned for Lawyers of Pennsylvania is a mental health and substance disorder treatment organization where any lawyer, former lawyer or family member connected to a lawyer can pick up the phone call 24 hours a day, each state has their own programs. But Pennsylvania’s is very special. Today, I’m actually a peer volunteer with Lawyers Concerned for Lawyers. But Lawyers Concerned for Lawyers was able to help me find access to treatment with an addiction psychologist, and I went to work on not only the gambling addiction, but the underlying etiology, those emotional holes in me that I alluded to earlier.
Some really deep gaping wounds, some tremendous immaturity, some loss, some trauma, some depression, some anxiety, the things that were fueling the addictive behavior.
I also went into the legal authorities, and fully and completely confessed to every dollar that I had taken, that did not belong to me.
For a lawyer take money from a client’s trust account, whether you’re taking it out or trying to put it back in, it doesn’t belong to you, it’s as illegal either way. And I surrendered my law license, I voluntarily consented to being disbarred from the practice of law in the state of Pennsylvania and the state of New Jersey. And I confessed to what I had done. I gave them access to all of my books; they got access to the casino records. And as I recall, in February of 2015, in a courtroom where I had once practice law, in the presence of my three children, I pled guilty to 13 Financial Felonies and one financial misdemeanor.
And at this moment, the second of the series of three conversations that would shape my journey took place. And in this was a profound moment, I was being sentenced for my financial crimes. And I was sentenced to 11 and a half to 23 months in prison. And the judge granted me in the courtroom, immediate parole to continue working on my treatment. I haven’t looked at the transcript from this hearing in quite a while. I can’t tell you that I’m quoting verbatim, but I’m pretty close.
His honor, the judge said, and again, this is not a direct quote, but it’s close. He said, if a court can’t help or have mercy on an individual who comes forward in the grips of a devastating addiction, admitting their faults, and wanting to make amends, I don’t know why a court is here.
And when I was a lawyer, I used to wonder how much attention the client paid to the comments of the judge during a sentencing hearing. I was glued to two things in that room. One was the look in the eyes of my children who were seated a couple of rows behind me. And the other were every word, the judge said, and I took that moment and stored it away in the back of my mind, that maybe somewhere, somehow, someday, I’ll have an opportunity to do something to help other people with this. This was 2015, I wasn’t anywhere near thinking about what it might or might not look like, I had a lot of work still to do on myself. But I put that in the back of my mind. I continued my work.
Margaret 28:58
Can I ask Harry how old the three children were in the courtroom at that point?
Harry Levant 29:02
This was 2015. So, my son would have been 18 and his twin sisters, they were 14.
Margaret: Okay, thank you.
Harry: There was a lot of work still to do. And I continued to do that work, working with just an outstanding addiction psychologist by the name of Jeremy Frank, just outside of Philadelphia. And little by little, took a job waiting tables in a restaurant and used that to find places to live. Lived in a rented rooms from people who had an extra bedroom in a house and tried to become a reasonably decent waiter and continued to work on myself. The waiting tables paid for my rent and paid for my therapy and continued the slow, necessary slog through, not only the addiction and all the harm caused to so many people who cared about me, but also the underlying emotional problems.
I told you at the start of this, I run a mental health and gambling treatment group. I have yet to see a person who struggles with gambling who is not also struggling with depression and anxiety. And which comes first and how they relate to each other becomes an addiction; it all gets obliterated. But to truly get well, your sober date is one thing. But to find long term recovery, you have to sort out all of this.
And I did that for the better part of three and a half, four years. And in the summer of 2018, I realized that I was becoming one of the best versions, if not the best version of myself, I had been in a very, very, very long time. I had processed a lot of stuff. And I felt as though my feet were firmly on the ground in recovery. And I began to really think about what it might look like to try and help other people. You don’t dare try and help others until you help yourself,
Margaret: Right.
Harry: But I felt as though I was ready. I also didn’t think anybody would want me or my baggage or my story. I applied around. And one of the places where I got called for an interview was LaSalle University in Philadelphia, which is about 10 minutes from where I grew up. And I had never been on the campus LaSalle University a day in my life until the late spring, early summer 2018. And I went for an interview, I was interviewed by the director of the marriage and family therapy and professional clinical counseling program, woman by the name of Donna Tonrey. I love Donna Tonrey, Donna Tonrey will be the third of the three conversations that saved my life or propelled my journey.
You started us today by talking about many of us, in the treatment world are propelled by our stories. I’m going to share with you what Dr. Donna Tonrey told me, because I don’t think I would be the therapist that I am, and I am becoming today without what Dr. Donna Tonrey shared with me. And it’s a place where you and I may differ a little bit. And that’s always good to have those spirited professional discussions.
Margaret: Absolutely.
Harry: I showed up at LaSalle in the late spring, early summer 2018 ready to spill my guts on my story. Because who was gonna want me and my baggage. And I am sitting in the outer office, as nervous as I could be and go into Dr. Tonrey’s office, and I proceed to spend about 35 minutes telling her the entire story. And to her credit, she let me go, she didn’t stop me for one second. At the end of telling my story, she shares the following thing with me. She says, “Harry, you don’t realize this yet. But the least interesting thing about you is your story. What’s actually real interesting is what you’re already doing with it and what you want to do with it. Your story is Ooh, and ah for 10 minutes at a party. But that’s not the interesting part. The interesting part is the vision that you have and what you want to do. And when you come here to LaSalle, and you study and you learn how to become a Professional Clinical Counselor and addictions counselor, you will realize your story is the least important part.” Dr. Tonrey, what do you mean when I come here? I haven’t even been accepted yet. She said Sir, I’m the director of the program when you come here.
Dr. Tonrey retired after my first year at LaSalle. A couple of years later, as I was about to graduate from LaSalle. I very coincidentally, bumped into Donna Tonrey.
Margaret: No such thing.
Harry: Well, maybe not. And I had an opportunity to shake her hand and share that story. And we both remembered it and we remembered it almost identically. And I told her that day. I don’t know that I would have come to LaSalle and seen the journey through if she hadn’t shared that wisdom with me, and she’s absolutely right. I wouldn’t be where I am without my story. But my story is a way to reach people. This is not about my story. This is about an effort to try and do something to help other people who may be struggling or family members. That’s what this is really all about.
And I enrolled at LaSalle and graduated from LaSalle. Took an entry level job as an addictions counselor while I was in school, I fell in love with the job, worked in a couple of different places.
And had the privilege to spend my last year at LaSalle, interning at inpatient center called Livengrin, just outside of Philadelphia, and realized I love this work.
I graduated from LaSalle, in May of this year, with my master’s in professional clinical counseling. And along the way, as we talked about earlier, I came up with the idea that I’m gonna go get myself a doctorate.
Why am I going to get myself a doctorate? Well, because I love my day job. I love being a mental health therapist and a Professional Clinical Counselor. I don’t want anybody to suffer. But if you are suffering, may you come to Ethos Treatment Center, may you find a Margaret Swift Thompson, or somebody like us to work with you, because there are people out there who love doing what we do, and we can help. We can. And we don’t want people to suffer, and anyway I love my day job.
But I have a second part of this day job as professional counselors, we have certain ethical principles we are bound to follow, we adhere to. One of those ethical principles is the principle of the concept of beneficence. Doing the best that we can not only for our clients, but for society at large. And I have identified a, what I believe to be a significant problem that is growing exponentially. And that is the risk to people and families from the explosive growth, of legalized gambling, and in particular, online casino and online, sports gambling.
I am not opposed to gambling. I can’t do it. I’m an addict. Many people can. I’m not opposed to it. But I am fundamentally opposed to the following scenario. We have a product that everyone knows is addictive. We have seen now the development of what I call the gambling establishment. I didn’t create his term there’s a very distinguished professor at Oxford University in the UK by the name of James Orford, who wrote a book called The Gambling Establishment.
The notion being that when we’re talking about gambling, we are now talking about a combination of gambling companies, the largest media companies in the world, technology companies, sports leagues, and teams, both professional and college. Organizations that portray themselves as advocacy organizations, like the National Council on Problem Gambling, that gets an overwhelming amount of its funding directly from the gambling, industry, and state government itself.
They are all joined together to deliver this product that everyone knows is addictive, as quickly as can be possibly done through the use of technology on these devices. Where the access to gambling is constant and instantaneous. And without filters without guardrails, we have a system in place that is inexorably going to cause harm to people and families. The way I describe it is I’m going to get my doctorate because lives and families are in the balance. And we need to begin talking about how gambling is going to be regulated. Because we now have micro betting on the speed of every pitch, or whether the next play in a football game is more or less than four yards. It is pervasive, it is everywhere. It’s been normalized. And as with any addictive product, the faster it is consumed, the faster the access, the greater the risk of harm.
So, I’m now at Northeastern and my research is designed to shed a light on this model called responsible gaming, which if you want to talk more about, we will and hopefully replace responsible gaming with a more meaningful federal policy on how to bring reform and regulation to the gambling industry, with a particular eye on how do we protect children and families.
People are going to gamble. But the system that’s in place right now is patently dangerous and, in many ways, predatory.
Margaret 40:26
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story.
Please find resources on my website,
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you!
