Welcome to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast. Today, I’m joined again by Brenda, a courageous and inspiring guest who shares her multi-layered recovery journey from workaholism, codependency, and alcohol addiction. Brenda opens up about how these struggles intertwined in her life, the unexpected healing she found through writing poetry, and the tools she used to rebuild her relationship with herself.
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You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Intro: Welcome back to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast. Today I am joined again by Brenda, the courageous and inspiring guest who shares her multi layered recovery journey from workaholism, codependency, and alcohol addiction.
Brenda opens up about how these struggles intertwined in her life, the unexpected healing she found through writing poetry and the tool she has used to rebuild her relationship with herself.
Let’s get back to Brenda.
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
Margaret 01:26
So you find CODA, you start working in CODA. Where’s your alcohol consumption at this point? Is it still growing problematic?
Brenda 01:36
I’m sober. I don’t, I don’t drink.
Margaret 01:39
Got it? My bad, yeah. So, you’re sober when you gave your anniversary of 10 years, is that for alcohol? Got it. So, you chose to get sober around the time you’re exploring the workaholism and doing that, I
Brenda: 01:58
actually addressed that first.
Margaret:02:03
Alcohol first?
Brenda: 02:04
No.
Margaret 02:07
CODA first?
Brenda:
The other first
Margaret: 02:09
Workaholism and CODA first.
Brenda: Workaholism and CODA first. So, I’m looking at, let’s see, 2009 would be my anniversary date for CODA.
Margaret: Okay.
Brenda: yeah, and Workaholics Anonymous, about the same, yeah, so and, and I think because of the cross addiction piece, and again, this is, you know, my alcohol use ramped up quite a bit after I stopped the other addictions.
Margaret 02:30
Makes sense. We see it a lot, right? When you work in the field, you see it with clients. You know that for me, I sought Al-Anon before I ever sought recovery with food addiction. So, I do relate to that being secondary to the primary even though maybe you know it’s true, it’s funny. I don’t even know what I’m trying to say, but when you look at many people who qualify for 12 step recovery around a substance or a behavior, many of them eventually end up in Al-Anon or CODA because of that being a primary relationship. Do you find the same?
Brenda: 03:04
Yes, I agree, absolutely.
Margaret 03:07
And it’s also encouraged by our society, which makes it really hard to get honest about needing help with because, you know, good caregivers, enablers, fixers are valuable to other people whose lives are unmanageable.
Brenda: Oh, for sure.
Margaret: It can be difficult to seek help for it so valuable, so life affirming, but can be hard to change that.
Brenda: 03:29
Yeah, I needed to focus on myself, and I didn’t see that,
Margaret: Right?
Brenda: I didn’t understand how important that was, until it wasn’t working for me. And so then, you know, with CODA, Codependence Anonymous, Al-Anon, it’s about that, you know, we can only change ourselves and so, so that’s a huge gift, if you will. I feel way more serene in my life, peaceful when I stopped thinking I could, you know, that I could control the world, right, and everything around me, right? You know, did that at work too, although I didn’t, I was kind of stuck in the middle there. There’s a poem I’d love to read to you when we get to that point, but it’s called ‘The Middle.’ And you know that feeling of the middle?
Margaret 04:26
Why don’t you read that? I think let’s do a little reading from your book.
Brenda: Okay,
Margaret: Um, before we jump into that, actually, we you said you started it. Your writing part wasn’t until you got into recovery. It wasn’t something you did as a child. It wasn’t an outlet for you when you found it, what did it give you? Brenda, what was, I know it probably didn’t start out. I’m going to write a book. So, what did the, what did the poetry, journaling, writing do for you?
Brenda: 04:53
So, it just started one, you know, it was started after a retreat. I was at this okay? Some opening, if you will, of words and ideas. And I didn’t understand what was going on, actually, because I was, like someone had mentioned at this retreat I was on, it was a spiritual retreat. They had brought up a poem, and so that was put in my mind. But I didn’t like poetry. Frankly. I got a D in English Comp in college. This was one of those, what are you what? You know, I this was an area where I did not excel. It did not excel in English, not even close. So that’s what’s really interesting. That’s what compelled me. It was like, this is not me. This is not me. What is this? And so, I give credit to my higher power, because I can’t, I don’t know what else you know? It was a cathartic experience. It started with a couple of poems where I just wrote after this retreat, and then I just seemed compelled to write. And it was, I was writing four poems a day.
Margaret: Wow.
Brenda: I was clipping a lot. I mean, it was a very painful process. It felt like I was coughing, coughing stuff up. You know, I was, It wasn’t a fun experience.
Margaret 06:26
So, the pain part Brenda, the pain part of coughing things, I say it’s like throwing up furniture. That’s what it feels like to me. But when, when you look at the pain process, was it the actual writing? Was it the memories? Was it the like, what part of it was painful for you, putting it on paper, knowing it was in black and white.
Brenda 06:47
It was the process of and this has been an issue for me, is trying to get what’s in my head out,
Margaret: Got it.
Brenda: And this is still an issue for me, I have to say, it’s like I have all this in here, but I’m much better at speaking it than I am at writing it.
Margaret: Got it
Brenda: because there’s, there’s some sort of translation issue. I don’t know what it is, and I think it has to do with my perfectionism, like I’ll think of a word and, oh no, that’s not the word. Oh, wait, I use that word too many times. No, wait, oh, wait, is that a, you know, and it’s this editor in my head, and it in it. It was like, after a while, I just get overwhelmed with it, and I just stop and, but this was, it felt needed, if you will. It felt like this is going to help me. This is a needed thing. So, I think I can only look at it in hindsight,
Margaret: Right?
Brenda: That that’s what it was for. And so, then once, I had 130 of them over the course of a couple years’ time or so. Okay, there they are, there, and it stopped. The whole thing stopped. Like it was like a firehose.
Margaret: Wow.
Brenda: Was like, oh. And then nothing. And I have nothing.
Margaret 08:20
You don’t do poetry writing anymore. No outlet that way. Interesting.
Brenda: No, it’s been years. It’s been 10 years. Wow.
Margaret 08:28
Wow! So, what I’m hearing you say for the listeners out there who may be experiences similar, of like an A new outlet, or a new concept or a new tool that seems appealing when historically would never have been take a risk and try it out, because you don’t know what it could do for you and possibly others.
Brenda: 08:48
Yeah, and, I mean, take a risk. I mean, I want to share with you my mug here, and I put this quote in my book. But
Margaret: Courage,
Brenda: ‘Courage doesn’t always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, I will try again tomorrow.’
And it is a day at a time. And you know, I was never a public speaker either ever. I avoided speech like the plague. I took English Composition two as the lesser of two evils, versus speech 101, and got the D, remember the D?
Margaret: Yeah, yeah, the D
Brenda: my only D in my college career. And now I’m, I’m out there speak, doing some speaking, and I really, I feel energized by it,
Margaret: Yeah.
Brenda: I still struggle with putting words to paper, like I feel like I need to have my talk all written down. This is not that, obviously we can’t do that here, which gives me a little bit more anxiety,
Margaret: Sure,
Brenda: but you know, the prep process is my struggle. But the doing it comes like, okay, there it is, okay. It is what it is. So interesting though that. So, the book came after, so I wrote poems early recovery from alcohol and codependency. But, you know, alcohol was one that I’m like, really, really, really, have to get a handle on this thing. And then I wrote them all down. And then I just kept getting these little quiet nudges. What are you going to do with them? There they are. What are you going to do with them? And this book idea appeared about five years ago, or 6 years ago.
Margaret 10:40
Which I love the title, ‘Stepping into Trust.’
Brenda: 10:44
Thank you. Yeah, that was, it has a 12 step vibe to it, because I’m a 12 stepper,
Margaret: Yep.
Brenda: And it shows motion like it’s not just a oh, I trust. Now it’s a movement into trust. So the title I really, I really like as well. I have to say, I do, you know some of my work, I’m thinking it’s a little bit elementary, because they all, all my poems rhyme, and
Margaret 11:16
I did not find them elementary. First of all, I found a sense of awe in your willingness to be vulnerable. That’s hard. And I’ve just written something that will be published in February, and I have to say writing is different than speaking. I’m not even sure I’ve come to terms with what’s so different about it, but it was really difficult to write versus speak.
Brenda: Yeah,
Margaret: Maybe the permanence mixed with a little bit of trauma of what had been done with prior writing that I didn’t want anyone to see, but it’s interesting, and I so, I mean, in this journey of reading your poetry, when I’m going through the process of writing something, it’s been kind of cool to think, could I have done that? Could I have been that vulnerable in that capacity? And I respect and love that you say that it was very much led by your higher power, because your story tells it clearly. You were not someone who would ever choose this as a mode of release because you didn’t do the writing part.
Brenda: 12:20
I didn’t, and that’s where I feel like it makes
Margaret: It makes it even more special.
Brenda: Yeah? And special is a good word. I think I’m an odd duck kind of because I don’t fit. I feel like, where do I fit? Like I mentioned, you know, I feel like, so I fit everywhere and nowhere. So that’s, you know, finding identity, yeah.
Margaret 12:39
Yeah. So, let’s hear a poem. Why don’t we start with the one ‘In the middle,’ since that was, or do you want to do a different one?
Brenda 12:43
Can I read?
Margaret 12:47
Read whatever you want? Brenda, it’s your beautiful words, you pick.
Brenda: 12:51
Okay what I’d like to read? Because we’ve talked, been talking about, you know, growth and finding ourselves. I have a chapter that starts out. It’s called ‘Finding identity.’ And then ‘The Middle’ follows this poem that I wrote great and so, yeah, if I just do a little reading.
Margaret 13:09
Love that, yes, nothing better than hearing someone read their own words. I think that’s so powerful. So, yes.
Brenda 13:16
Yeah, all right. So, this chapter is called ‘Finding Identity.’ It starts out with a quote from Brene Brown, ‘The Gifts of Imperfection.’ Brene Brown is, I am a fan, and she really speaks to me and my heart.
So Brene Brown says, “Owning our story can be hard, but not nearly as difficult as spending our lives running from it. Only when we are brave enough to explore the darkness, will we discover the infinite power of our light?”
So, I go on to start
“At first, I didn’t want to look at my story. When I finally became willing, it was an extensive search to find myself. I was an expert at putting on a mask and trying to be what I thought I should be in each area of my life.
I don’t think I knew who I really was deep down before, and I’m not sure I liked who I was. I had a lot of shame around being an addict. I came to the realization that I used whatever I could to not feel vulnerable, including overworking, alcohol, care taking, and overeating.
I needed a lot of support but felt too high maintenance to reach out. I stuffed the feelings of needing help and being vulnerable deep down, this equaled needs not being met, which led to more feelings of neediness, a double bind.
I was very afraid of rejection, and this kept me from not reaching out when I needed to do so. My lament was others can work a lot and drink and not have the consequences I am experiencing. I felt different, set apart.
At the same time, I experienced a growing awareness that I was so much more than what I did for a living. It was liberating.
Today, I can say with 100% certainty that I like myself, not for who I am supposed to be, not for who someone else thinks I should be, and not for who I think someone else wants me to be.
I like myself for who God made me to be. I have come to see that there is joy in the journey of discovering who I am and what I value.
After awareness comes the important lifelong task of being true to these values in my words and in my actions.”
So that’s the beginning of that chapter. So, the first poem we’ve talked about ‘The Middle’ a little bit already.
This one is called ‘The Middle.’
I’ve always felt stuck in the middle,
ever since I was very little.
Being everywhere and nowhere best describes the feeling,
a bitter loneliness and desperate need of healing.
Is this the destiny of the Lost Child, of one on the fringe,
never wanting to hurt or impinge.
Continually wanting all strife to cease,
a burning desire to connect dots and restore peace.
A diplomat from the very start,
is this how I should share my heart?
The desire to control the outcome often gets in my way,
and the feeling of failure is the price I pay.
Forever seeing conflict as a burden,
am I willing to see the blessing in disguise?
For it can be in the search for resolution
that one finds the prize.
So, there’s the journey,
Margaret: Wow.
Brenda: The search.
Bumper 17:18
This podcast is made possible by listeners like you.
As some of you may recall I had the pleasure of bringing together former colleagues of mine to create and implement a family recovery program based out in the community that is being continued in Amery, Wisconsin by the Spiritual Program Retreat.
I’m thrilled to share that the weekend of May 2nd through 4th the Spiritual Program Retreat in Amery WI at Camp Wapogasset, what a beautiful location for a retreat, will be hosting their Family Program Retreat with a very special guest speaker, Bob Bernu.
I will be there as a support role however this will be once again a fabulous place for anyone impacted by the family disease of addiction to get greater insight into the family disease, and the benefits and resources for family recovery.
I will attach the link to this wonderful Family Program Retreat in my show notes.
You’re listening to the Embrace family recovery podcast. Can you relate to what you’re hearing? Never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.
Margaret 18:37
Well, it’s ironic that you talk about vulnerability when I listen to you, I mean, that’s exactly what you’re being you. You did everything to avoid feeling vulnerable, and in putting words to paper, you were willing to be vulnerable and in turn, help others to maybe reach parts of themselves they haven’t. Through your vulnerability, it’s quite beautiful.
Brenda: 19:00
Thank you, yeah. It has a purpose. It’s, you know, I just, you know, I’m letting my higher power lead.
Margaret: Yeah.
Brenda: And it’s been kind of a slower journey than what I expected with the book. I think, you know, you get out there and, oh, now I’m going to sell books. Okay, this is what I’m supposed to do. And I just don’t find myself a bookseller person. I find myself more as a person that comes alongside another person. And I feel like the book will show up that, you know, I get it out there. A little bit
Margaret 19:41
Yeah,
Brenda: a little bit.
Margaret: Where can people find your book?
Brenda: 19:46
The book is on Amazon. They can find it on Amazon if they’re local. I have a I have a bunch of my trunk,
Margaret 19:56
not the junk of the trunk, but the book in the trunk!
Brenda: 19:59
I give it. Way. I mean, I give it to places that you know could raise money for scholarships. I have a retreat organization that I’m involved in that I give books to that, and they raise money for scholarships. I give it to people. I feel like I just want to do that,
Margaret: Right?
Brenda: It’s on Amazon. Though Amazon doesn’t operate that way,
Margaret: No,
Brenda: and nor does the publisher, so it does get out there that way, but otherwise, I’m pretty quiet about it.
Margaret 20:31
Yes, I know that, Brenda, I know you’re quiet about it, so we’re going to not be quiet about it, because I believe that my listeners will value reading this, and I believe they will gain things from your willingness to share that they can identify with.
And one of the things I know helps books get out there is for people to write reviews on Amazon. So, I’m going to encourage people to go out and buy ‘Stepping into Trust’ by Brenda Rausch, and I will put the links on my website and my podcast.
And when you go out and get the book, and when you read the book for Brenda to be able to let this book get out to the people that need and deserve it, we’re going to write reviews so we can get some more attention to it and the algorithms on Amazon.
Brenda: Thank you.
Margaret: Yeah, least we, I think anyone who has the courage to put their words to paper does service for other people. So, what can we do to help them? And I hear that it’s not a money maker for you, it’s a service project, kind of like this podcast is for me, and I feel we can still assist you in getting it into hands of people that may not know it exists.
Brenda: 21:44
And that’s the piece that me and my quietness, I want to be able to provide that service. And it’s a matter of knowing how to do that, and, , and that works for my personality and, you know, so it’s just, it’s just finding the venues, the finding the right things. And I like to talk, I mean, lately, surprise, surprise, I’m okay with getting up and speaking. Kind of a shocker,
Margaret: And do a fine job.
Brenda: I don’t mind doing it, and I feel like I’m I’m protected by my higher power when I do it, and I’m not alone when I do it, because I have all, you know, an audience and so that, you know, see where that goes. But, yeah, I don’t promote myself in that area, either, but I’m definitely available and willing to do it. So however, that evolves.
Margaret 22:47
So, is there another poem you want to close our conversation out with that you’d like to share?
Brenda 22:53
Sure, I would love to. So, the middle is a little bit more, you know, from my past and my, you know, I wrote that when I was going through some difficult times, and you can kind of get that vibe,
Margaret: Yes.
Brenda: So, the poem that I think I would like to share to close is called the abundance. Yeah, I was thinking about one called the gratitude. And I definitely have a lot of gratitude in my life, and about of a lot of things, but the abundance I’m going to go with so
Margaret: Great.
Brenda: So,
‘The Abundance’
‘My heart overflows with love,
this precious gift can only come from above.
For a long time, I’ve been in a place of scarcity,
a feeling all too familiar to me.
Now I find myself in a place of abundance and generosity
and want to give what I have to people I see.
This abundance is not financial gain,
but a much bigger gift to obtain.
A wondrous change of mind and heart,
an increasing desire to do my part
so that others can truly live,
grateful to believe I have much to give.’
Margaret 24:18
Well and you did the financial abundance. I mean, you worked in a career that gave you that, at a great expense because of your workaholism. So, to be in a place today where you can be. I mean, I think one of the things that you read from before the middle was being able to be in your skin and feel good as who you are, not who others need you to be, or want you to be, or expect you to be, that’s such healing from where you came.
If you were to speak to the listeners who may be on the fence about what their recovery looks like, who want that abundance but just can’t seem to figure out how to get out of the fray of the fear, the worry, the perfectionism, the whatever it may be for them, what would you give them? What has been important to you that you would share as a resource or a step?
Brenda: 25:21
It’s a really good question. First of all, I had to identify that I was in that, the pain I was feeling did not help me and was not I wasn’t happy, I wasn’t happy.
So, I had to identify that I was in a place where I didn’t like I didn’t like it. Then I had to come to a place of, well, can I do something about it? Is that, you know, I had to find some hope. Had to do some exploration, try some different things. I had to be in a place where I needed to look up. I mean, you know, I needed to ask for help.
I mean, which is so hard for us that sometimes we think we want to control everything, and need to control and, and I don’t know, the reluctance to, you know, get some help, whether it be a self-help group or a therapist or a coach. It just, it’s, it’s hard when I talk to people now. I mean, I’m walk, I walk the talk,
Margaret: Right?
Brenda: I’m still in therapy. I’ve been in therapy for 20 years. So what?
Margaret: Right?
Brenda: It’s a gift. I’m glad I can do it, and I’ve gained so much, and so asking for help, sponsor, a sponsor. I mean, there’s programs that people don’t feel like they want to go therapy. There’s, you know, programs all over the place, and in this mutual support area.
If they don’t like 12 steps, there’s other things. So, it’s a matter of like, getting out there and saying, okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna put courage in place of fear, in the face of fear, or in front of fear, or whatever. I’m going to exercise some courage here.
And so, I would say, you know, just you know, having to realize this is not who I want to be. And there’s ways out.
Margaret: Yeah.
Brenda: And it’s not focusing on the other person either. It’s focusing on my needs and what I need, and then I can take a look at the other person
Margaret 27:36
I would also add, I’m curious your thought on this. I think acknowledging a legitimacy about where we find ourselves. Meaning I can look at my in your case, father, and know he needed and deserved help, whether he got it or not I can’t control.
I can look at someone with cancer and know or someone who’s lost a significant person and know. I had a harder time seeing this as a legitimacy when it at once point served me, and it’s not something tangible or concrete, like an alcoholism problem, codependency still can be de legitimized in as being life threatening and dangerous for people’s well-being. What’s your take on that?
Brenda: 28:29
Like I mentioned about workaholism, I think it’s a slow, slow killer.
Margaret: Yeah.
Brenda: You know, and it affects all areas. You know, when I sit around the rooms and, you know, and I’m definitely in a different place than I was 14 years ago, but I still go to meeting, a meeting once a week, and I sit around the rooms and I hear the pain of people, and thank God they’re in the room, right, because they’re focusing on the solution.
And I hear them tell me, tell us in the room, you know, wow, here this is. And, wow, I never thought about this. And, wow, you know? I mean, it just opens up a whole other area. And, yes, it’s frustrating. It’s, I mean, especially for those that have gone through maybe another type of recovery program, like, oh, my goodness, I have another thing to do?
Margaret: Right?
Brenda: Well, I think lifelong learning, yeah, I’m actually glad at 62, years old, I have things to learn. I mean, if I didn’t right, what does that make me, you know? So, I don’t know. Wise counselor said to me once, well, I felt like I was too old for this, or I, you know, I can’t learn, or I can’t this. And it’s, it’s like you’re going to be in the same you know, do you want to make things better? Do I want to make things better? I’m going to be where I am. I mean, you know, am I going to be 62, years old and in it a ton of pain? Or am I going to be. 62 years old and living a life that I couldn’t have even imagined, you know, 14 years ago.
Margaret: Full of abundance.
Brenda: Yeah, and I and to trust that others, if it worked for them, could it work for me?
Margaret: Yeah.
Brenda: and that trust, right? We go back to trust like, well, give it a shot.
Margaet: What do you have to lose?
Brenda: Well, right? I mean, you’re still going to be, you know, my fear of disappointment was significant. My fear of, oh, I’m going to try something else, and this isn’t going to work. And that’s, there’s a, I have a loss history, and so I think people that have tried and failed, that fear of failure can be a real hard one to, you know, get out and go again. And I think for people that have relapsed, you know, in whether it be whatever it is hard, and I’ve done that, I’ve done it. I’ve had a one relapse in the alcohol thing, and I’ve relapsed multiple times on sugar, multiple 10/20.
Margaret 31:07
Interesting that you shared that because when I finally found the rooms of Overeaters Anonymous and started my journey in recovery around food addiction, I didn’t tell people.
And the reason I didn’t tell people is I had tried Dr Phil, Weight Watchers, Curve, you know? I mean, I could list the different books, the different programs, the different things I had attempted, and I didn’t want to hear from anyone, oh, what’s this fan dangled idea you’ve got going on. All you need to do is get over it and stop doing it, you know, because that was the common theme.
And it took me a while to be honest, other than the people in my close, immediate family, a few friends, to get honest about what I was doing, because I was so fearful of failing.
Brenda 31:56
For sure, for sure, and it, and it’s like, do I have to do it this way. I mean, it’s the same with the alcohol or the work. It’s the same question, why? Why does it have to be this way for me,
Margaret: Right?
Brenda: When so and so over there can eat a cookie and
Margaret: Right,
Brenda: not have this craving jump at them? And it is about that. I mean, it’s like, I can’t and, and I’m in a place I’ve been abstinent from sugar now again, for the umpteenth time four months.
Margaret: Mm, hmm.
Brenda: And, I’ve been here before, and I’m afraid to even talk about it, because I’m thinking, it’s not gonna I’m gonna, so.
Margaret 32:40
I hear you, and I think what you just mentioned was a very valid point, too. I think that for me, whether it’s people or food, for others, alcohol or workaholism, it’s what’s going on between the ears and the level of preoccupation obsession that’s hardest to live with. And no matter what, I’ve been thankfully in recovery and abstinent for a very long time, my body change has happened with menopause and all sorts of life events, and that’s really hard. But what I’m grateful for is the preoccupation, obsession is not there because I am working a program.
Brenda: Right?
Margaret: You know? And it’s a journey, it’s a journey, and there’s no perfect journey. And I think that the message you really share in this is to when you have pain, or you come to a place and you know something’s no longer working for you take a risk, try something different, and with your writing, when you get this urge to do it and you don’t understand it because it’s so different than anything you’ve chosen to do for yourself before, lean into it. Never know what it can do for you.
I think I’d love you to share again as a close out here, if you’re willing, the requirement, the only requirement for CODA, because I think that is just a beautiful thing, and a great way to leave this. Because if somebody doesn’t know where they fit, that could be a great place to start, because who doesn’t want the qualifier that you raised? So, what is it?
Brenda 34:12
Sure, the only requirement for membership is a desire for healthy and loving relationships.
Margaret: Who doesn’t want that?
Brenda: And that’s with ourselves as well with ourselves as well as others. It’s both, and that’s important.
Margaret 34:26
Yes, it is, and I love it, and I think that’s a great place to leave it for people who may be wondering where to go. I want to do something, but I’m not sure how to go because I don’t have say, an alcoholic in my life. Might be a great starting off point.
Outro: Thank you, Brenda, for sharing so much of yourself and your story on this podcast, and for your beautiful poetry book entitled ‘A Poetry Journey of Recovery.’ You can locate this wonderful book on Amazon.
Please come back next week where I will share another solo episode of ‘Moments with Margaret.’
I want to thank my guests for their courage and vulnerability in sharing parts of their story.
Please find resources on my website,
This is Margaret Swift Thompson, until next time, please take care of you.
