Today it is my privilege to introduce you to Amy C. Sullivan, the author of ‘Opioid Reckoning Love, Loss, and Redemption in the Rehab State.’ Amy shares what led her to write this book from research and anecdotal place, which makes it a more impactful read.
As Sarah Gollust described, ” the personal narratives and oral histories Sullivan weaves together tell an indelible story of the trauma, stigma, and above all, humanity of the experience of addiction and recovery.”
As I have learned from many of my guests, Amy has a personal reason for writing this book.
Exciting news, Amy’s publisher has arranged for a 30% discount when you order ‘Opioid Reckoning’ at http://z.umn.edu/OpioidReckoning using the promo code MN89780.
This offer is good through Dec. 1, 2022.
See full transcript below.
00:01
You’re listening to The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Intro: Welcome back! Today I have the privilege of introducing you to Amy C. Sullivan the author of ‘Opioid Reckoning Love, Loss and Eedemption in the Rehab State’. Yes, Amy is talking about Minnesota AKA Minnesober! To be fully transparent, I sucked at history in high school and Amy must be a fantastic professor as both her book and our conversation was relatable and so interesting. Meet Amy Sullivan.
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast
01:01
Margaret 01:14
So, I am thrilled to introduce you all to Amy Sullivan, the author of ‘Opioid Reckoning, Love, Loss and Redemption in the Rehab State’. Which just your title was very intriguing to me having worked in the rehab state for so long. But welcome, Amy, and I’m thrilled for my audience to hear from you and learn from you. Because I understand through reading your book that this was initiated, because of addiction personally touching your life.
Amy Sullivan: Yes.
Margaret: And I would love you to share a little bit about your qualifier we call the person who we identify through that helps us find our way. And a little bit of your journey that led you to decide to write this powerful, powerful book.
02:03
Amy: Thank you. Thanks so much, Margaret. And thank you for inviting me to talk about my book. I was brought to the opioid epidemic and to addiction in general by my young daughter, who struggled as a teenager, like many teenagers do, and who ended up having access to opioids. Which anyone who had a teenager, or who still has a teenager knows that that’s just part of our landscape, now. I had no idea that it was part of the current drugs scene for kids. I was just shocked and horrified. Heroin in particular was something that only like rock stars used, and most of them who used it were dead. So, I had a very ignorant understanding of what had happened. In the meantime, even with opioid pain pills. I honestly never made any connection until 10 or more years ago when it was already like in the second wave as the CDC calls it, by 2011.
Margaret 03:09
So interesting, right? To me, your book is human and academic. There’s a lot of really good information, the combination. So, my understanding is you’re a professor.
Amy: Yes.
Margaret: In a college setting?
Amy: Yes, Macalester College in St. Paul.
Margaret: Shout out to McAllister, I love it. And so, is it naive to say that you hadn’t seen much of the influence of the opioid epidemic on campus?
03:40
Amy: Oh, I’d seen nothing of the sort.
Margaret: Interesting.
Amy: And actually, when my daughter had a very serious, complex medical overdose and survived, I was still finishing my PhD. I was working different kinds of jobs. I was not a professor on a college campus. But I would say, you know, even in the past 10 years, I think that most schools have done a very poor job of alerting students to the problem. Maybe now with fentanyl, they will. But I wasn’t on a campus in that way.
Margaret: Part of it, ok
Amy: at that point. Yeah, yeah. But what brought me to this to answer your question about how did my book come from this personal and this academic setting? I study US history in the 21st century.
So, I’m a historian of the present in some many of my oral history projects, which means I study things that are still kind of going on, and I interviewed people about them. And I also studied the history of medicine. And when I started teaching at Macalester, I was fortunate to be able to teach a course called Race, Gender and Medicine. So, I started really thinking about what our family experience applied in a historical context? And how did we come to this place? So initially, after her overdose, while we were all healing, I reached out to physicians and also had some extended family members who said, Oh, you should go to Al-Anon meeting, you know, so I had these two kinds of things going on. At one time.
I would have to say it was really through the medical setting that I hooked on to the history. And then that led me to the history of AA and the Minnesota model. Yeah, the combination of the two is unusual for a historian. But considering that I started interviewing people, because I wanted to understand what was happening. It made total sense for my book, when I decided to write a book that it would incorporate both.
And what’s different about this book is that yes, I’m a professor. And yes, I have a PhD. But I wrote this specifically for a general audience. I did not write this and nor is it formatted in a way that’s like deep and heavy with footnotes, and a lot of jargon. I wanted it to be super approachable. Because I was so surprised about the things I learned as I was taking this journey of five or six years talking to people. I was so surprised how little people knew about the history of how treatment came to be, and how there were moments where we could have gone down the path of medication for opioid use disorder. And now I was able to see the moment where medicine and the rehab system split apart. Right. So that was really fascinating to me, like, why did people have these like, just generalized assumptions? And how could I intervene to kind of show well, you know, this isn’t how it’s always been. And clearly, clearly an epidemic that is, you know, killing 150 people a day. It’s not working. And we need to understand why it’s not working.
Margaret 07:12
So, I’m trying to, in my head, put the timeline together, because I can imagine it took a substantial amount of time to do the interviews, to do the research. And I would absolutely echo what you said it was a very readable book, very informative, but also emotionally connecting, it was fabulous. You did a beautiful job, Amy,
07:30
Amy: thank you, thank you.
Margaret 07:31
And I learned a lot. I find, when you get into the field of addiction from a certain lens, which mine was Minnesota Model, abstinence only till we became medicated assisted treatment. There was a very strong bias, I heard it from my training, year right the way through. And so, it was fascinating to go back and look at it through a different lens. But when I look at your timeline, and you say the catalyst was about 10 years ago, and it takes three to five to do the writing, research, and so forth, you started when? In using this as an outlet?
08:08
Amy: The other thing I study is Women’s History. And much of what we say now is gender, in that motherhood and childhood, I also study the history of childhood. And as I was getting to know, making friends with parents in my NarAnon group, I started thinking about collecting stories. And as an oral historian, like I just felt this need to capture what we’re going through right now for people in the future. And to capture what had happened, someone I had lunch with, a very lovely gentleman who was running a methadone clinic. We had lunch, and he said, you know, this epidemic has to change treatment. It just has to. We cannot go forward in the way that we’ve been going forward. And of course, when I hear the word change, as a historian, I’m like, oh, where is it? Where is it? Let me find it (laughter) because that’s what we look for. We look for when did something change over time?
So, his kind of tempting conversation spark and then the mothers I was meeting who were losing their kids, who were struggling with their adult children. And just in this repeat cycle, I just asked them, would you share your story with me?
I had no intention of writing a book at first. I was kind of invited to write it by the University of Minnesota Press when they found out about my project. And then it was after that point where I agreed to write the book that I started to think about my own story, as it related to the things I was discovering.
So, it was kind of like, I would say, I’m kind of the driver in the book and in those tough parts where you’re reading it, you know that I’m there. And you know, I’m not going to leave you with some I just horrific tragedy, which is what those of us who have been touched by addiction in our families with our loved ones, we can be kind of numbed to it. And where we read that stuff and we’re like, oh, that, I totally get that. Yes, I totally understand that. But someone with no prior experience, I was thinking about those people as well. Like, you need to understand what we’re going through, and you’re going to need to listen to these stories. But I’ll be there with you. And I hope you don’t quit reading.
So yeah, it seemed like a way to integrate the two to make it not just personal, but to kind of be a support, because I know from my own experience, having been in NarAnon for seven or more years, that that was essential to have a network of people who understood what you were going through. And so, I kind of took that model for my book.
11:00
This podcast is made possible by listeners like you,
Margaret 11:03
Well have I got a surprise for my loyal listeners! You get a coupon for 30% off of ‘Opioid Reckoning’ when you order at z.umn.edu/opioidreckoning using the promo code capital M as in Margaret capital N as in Nancy 89780
This is an offer for the listeners of The Embraced Family Recovery Podcast, and it is good through December 1st, 2022.
I wanna thank Amy Sullivan and her publisher for giving this coupon to you all. Don’t worry I know it’s a lot I got you find the coupon and information on purchasing the book on my webpage embracefamilyrecovery.com look for the episode of the podcast you’re listening to and the show notes below will have all the details.
Take care of you!
11:35
You’re listening to The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast? Can you relate to what you’re hearing? Never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.
Margaret 11:46
Your daughter thankfully made it through the medical overdose recovery that it took.
Amy: Yeah, yeah.
Margaret: And what struck me what you said in the beginning that I’ve been hearing repeatedly since you started was, it took me by surprise.
Amy: Yes.
Margaret: And I wonder if you through your own work in Nar-Anon had grace with yourself to know that that is a very typical experience for families?
Amy: Yes.
Margaret: That we don’t know, until it’s smacking us in the face and usually happens because of a consequence.
12:21
Amy: Yeah, well, in our case, you know, I think things were escalating over a time period. And I was also really struggling. I was going through a divorce, we moved to another state, there was just a lot of upheaval. And I did my best to prevent whatever I could. But I think the hardest thing for me as a parent was realizing that ultimately, I had no control over that. And even if that was something like drinking or smoking weed, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn’t stop it.
Margaret: No.
Amy: And I think that that powerlessness is what ultimately brought me to a meeting. And I also thought, very ignorantly that, well, since she survived and went through this terrible ordeal in the hospital, and recovery, she would never touch it again. I was doubly blindsided by my own complete lack of ignorance about opioids, and addiction. I had alcoholism on my maternal and paternal grandparents. But I didn’t understand. And I think, the years it took to kind of have that grace with myself, to realize that I did my best to control what I could, but I couldn’t stop it.
And I think that that kind of powerlessness is not the same as what you hear when someone in addiction, who’s seeking treatment. That’s not the same thing. Because when you’re parenting, your whole existence has been the preservation of that human life and loving it, and caring for it. It’s not an illness to take care of your child’s
Margaret: Right,
Amy: Right. It’s not so I think one of the things that was so like revealing and comforting to me as a scholar, but as a mother was also seeing how this idea of codependency has been used against parents. And that’s one of the things I feel really strongly about. That yes, there’s ways that you can contribute towards more harm, potentially, but you can’t think that you and your being and the things that you’ve done to love and support your child are wrong. Kicking my daughter out after a subsequent overdose, of my house and saying I didn’t want to see her again until she was sober or wanted a ride to treatment. If I could turn back time and redo that I would never have kicked her out. And people will say oh, but you had been through so much. And then and then. But what I got to in my research and listening to other people’s stories was how dangerous a moment that was. How utterly, utterly dangerous? Because I had never said that to her before. And, yes, she survived. But what an ordeal, what an ordeal that she ended up going through. And so, when I think about like, all the different ways that we are affected by addiction, we need a much more robust and complex way to handle it for people in their particular situations.
Margaret 15:40
Individualized,
15:42
Amy: Individualized, super individualized, but also structured in ways that work for all different kinds of people in all different sectors of life.
Margaret 15:52
Well, the piece that you speak to is what I say to my clients all the time is, the decisions you make for your boundaries have to be individualized to you, what you can tolerate? What you can live with? What feels right to you, even though none of it feels right. And what is best for you, which doesn’t always feel like it’s best for them. And at the end of the day, your powerless comment before that speaks loud and firm to me of. You can’t make them use and you can’t make them recover, no matter what you do, unless you’re actually giving it to them.
Amy: Right.
Margaret: So, if you had not set that boundary and asked her to leave, or given her that ultimatum, I don’t know what language you would use at that time. If you could do it again, what would you have done differently?
16:39
Amy: I would have been more insistent about getting help, and helping her get the help she needed. I think I would have said, you know, you can stay here until we find something. But your boyfriend can’t stay here.
I just wish that I had the tools at the ready. I wish I knew about Narcan in 2011. I wish I knew about harm reduction in 2011. I wish I had had access to Facebook groups that weren’t so blaming, that tough love thing. Yeah, I would have done things very differently.
Margaret 17:18
So, do you believe Amy that though you acknowledge your powerlessness, you could have done something different. She was how old at the time?
Amy: Well, the first the hospital was 18.
Margaret 17:30
And this time when you asked her to leave?
17:33
Amy: 19.
Margaret: So still quite young
Amy: 20 Yeah, maybe 20.
Margaret 17:36
When you look at the powerlessness around that reality that you experienced, of you put the side rails up, but you couldn’t control it.
Amy: Yeah.
Margaret: Do you think and again, it’s all retrospect, none of us know. But do you think that if she had stayed in the house with some of those parameters around the boyfriend and stuff that you could have influenced her to get treatment? Or help?
17:59
Amy: I don’t know, I just know that her being homeless and using was not okay.
Margaret: Right?
Amy: It was not safe. And even though she had a partner, it still was not safe. It’s criminal to me, that individual families have to come to these decisions on their own, without professional support, without social support networks for people, considering there might not be housing for the people that you love.
It really wasn’t good for her to be in the house because we have a younger daughter. So, I made those decisions as I made them. I think for me, it was probably one of my biggest pain points,
Margaret: of course,
Amy: In my journey as a mom, and looking back and wishing that I had more options and more knowledge and not so much expressions, and tough love and you know, all these kinds of little things that have permeated our culture. I wish that I’d had a deeper understanding of them.
And you know, when you get to a certain point, in your journey with your child, especially as they become an adult. Even if they go to treatment, you may not get to go to the parent day, if there is one, your child might not want you to go to the day. So even just like what I used to fantasize about was can I go away to treatment. Can I go to a place where someone will make me three meals a day, (laughter) and I can talk to therapists
Margaret: Absolutely
Amy: and do art projects. You know, like I was just…
Margaret 19:31
No, Amy, I so relate to that. I’ve heard that from more family members than I can ever attest to, whether it be partners or parents. And it’s said in jest at times, but it’s also very real.
Amy: No, it’s real
Margaret: This disease affects everybody and that’s why I created embrace family recovery because it’s like, we have these beautiful humans who are struggling with a chronic, progressive, and fatal disease who are trying to survive; doing things they hate, but at the mercy of a substance changing their brain chemistry telling them they have to do it. And we give them care albeit we could be improved about it, but we give them care. But what do we give families? One day?
Amy: Yeah, right. Right.
Margaret: One call.
Amy: A weekend? Yeah, yeah a weekend, a call with your loved one in the same room.
Margaret 20:20
I agree. And I think that that’s why I wanted to do something to give more support to families so that they didn’t have to feel so alone. So, they could talk through their thought process and what they want to do and where they’re at with it and get valuable feedback from someone who understands both sides of this illness. What I wonder, what did you get from Nar-Anon that helped you, because you stuck with it. You know, that was obviously very important to you, the community, the network?
20:48
Amy: Yes, I stuck with it until I was writing my book. And then and doing a lot of interviews, probably from 2012 to 2019. I got a community of people who desperately loved their loved one, who had come to the end of their own rope, and who needed to have an outlet for their own pain and their own struggles, and not to talk about their loved one, but to talk about how they were handling things or not handling them well. I also think that for me, there was a, affinity, just having that affinity group that had a consciousness to it, that we were there to help and love each other was really profound. And I wish that people had this in many parts of their lives, (laughter)
Margaret: Right.
Amy: Just like open ended love and support. Maybe for some people, that’s what they find in church, my own upbringing. Yes, there was definitely that in church. But this was not a church related issue. So just having community and people who understood what you were going through. And our group was really special and that we often went off script by having doctors come by having Narcan training, just educating ourselves, we had very much kind of a self-education component. And when I say off script, I mean, we kind of went outside of what you know, the 12-step model. There were probably people who would come to our meeting and be like, what are you guys doing here?
Outro: I so appreciated the challenging straddle Amy experience as a mom of a daughter with addiction and an academic historian while researching and writing her powerful book ‘Opioid Reckoning Love Loss and Redemption in the Rehab State’. Further evidence of how this disease does not discriminate. Join Amy and I next week where we take time to further discuss the straddle Amy maintained while balancing her roles as mother, researcher, and author.
Margaret 22:58
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability in sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website, embracefamilyrecovery.com This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you.
