Today is the final of Nancy’s three beautiful episodes. Nancy Espuche is a mother, author, and speaker who courageously shared her and her son Lucas’s story in her book ‘Kardboard House.’
Nancy shares the decision to publish, the fears and hopes of writing the book, and her journey in her grief.
What is crystal clear in Nancy’s story is that addiction is most definitely a family disease, with the collateral damage of the disease hurting everyone who loves the addicted person.
To learn more about Nancy, her book, her speaking engagements, visit her website:
https://www.kardboardhouse.com
See full transcript below.
00:01
You’re listening to The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now, here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Margaret 00:23
Welcome back, I understand the subject of losing someone we love to this disease is a terrifying and unimaginable thing. The sad irony is this fear runs rampant, through all loved ones along the journey with the disease of addiction. I am so grateful. Nancy Espuche took the huge risk, and has given us her and Luke’s story through her book ‘Kardboard House’. Let’s hear more from Nancy.
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
Margaret: So, in this process, writing your book, cardboard house, cathartic therapeutic service project?
Nancy 01:18
Maybe a little bit of everything. I know that when I first started to write I said to my two closest friends. Is this disrespectful to Lucas? Because I don’t want to do anything that does not honor him. And they and others assured me that Lucas would be so proud and would be proud to participate with me this way.
So that helped me work through my writings and how I wanted to lay out the book. Cathartic? Yes, and I know that I wrote it wanting people to forgive Lucas. He burned a lot of bridges and hurt other people besides me.
Margaret 02:08
Can I, Can I interject? Yes, his disease, burnt bridges and hurt people.
Nancy: Yes.
Margaret: And what I hear is so common, and I get it. And I love it. You wanted to show the truth of your son’s torment in his disease so people could understand better what they were receiving as collateral damage.
Nancy 02:35
Exactly and, and I think that was a very big driving factor for me. I wanted them to know that he is not his disease. He struggled with it. These are his words, not mine. I’m not flowering anything when people go yeah, yeah, that’s his mother loved him. And just I know that unless I speak up and out, I can’t heal. I can’t remain silent. That is not healing for me. So, from the place of being having it being cathartic, yes, to the degree, which it’s one of the tools, components of my healing experience.
Margaret 03:19
And flowery Mother, you were not. From the standpoint of pulling the curtain back and showing the truth of both of your stories. So not brutally, because it wasn’t brutal, but just unvarnished.
Nancy: and true.
Margaret: Which is a rare, yes. And a rare commodity. You know, one of the one of the characteristics of loving someone with this disease is perpetual mask wearing of, I’m fine. Many of us do that. This is not that! Your book is not? I’m fine. Your book is let me show you how this disease infiltrated us both.
Nancy 03:55
Yes. And maybe it’s the same with finding joy. I can’t pretend that I’m joyful. I can’t pretend that I’m fine. The one thing that has really stood out to me over the course of the last two and a half years in particular is I have not told anybody yet I’m good. Those words don’t come out of my mouth. People say how are you? Or how are you today? And I go, I’m fine. Because I am fine. But I’ll know I’m good when I find joy. When I allow that when I really opened my wings and spread and let more light in. And more sweetness and goodness it.
Margaret 04:43
Goes back to Lucas’s words. Mom, it’s your time, that was pretty fortuitous? Because I would imagine he wants you to have joy for you. And also, because he can’t. And I don’t know, as a parent in your shoes, how I would do that, and feel like I was honoring him and our story, when I might still feel guilt that he’s not on the journey.
Nancy: Yes.
Margaret: Does that make any sense, Nancy?
Nancy 05:16
And it’s complicated.
Margaret: Yeah.
Nancy: It’s very complicated. I think I was remembering as you were speaking, it was the last sentence in one of his letters, it’s your time mom. I wanted it, I want it to still be his time.
Margaret 05:37
Of course, Nancy. I was immediately thinking, again, I can’t comprehend it. I’m not in your shoes. I was thinking, I’d be screaming, but I don’t want it to be my time. I want it to be our time of recovery and joy together and you having the life I dreamed of?
Nancy 05:51
Yeah. I miss him. So much.
Margaret 05:55
Oh, how could you not? How could you not? He sounds like an amazing young man who was tortured by a disease.
Nancy 06:04
He was a really, I don’t say this with like, Haha, but he was an old soul. He was wise. He was people smart. Everything about him was not superficial. He had you know, intensity, to feel deep, to respond deep, to think deep. To believe deep. I mean, and he had a really gentle spirit. Loved babies, loved animals. They loved him too. He just didn’t love himself.
Margaret 06:39
He couldn’t, for whatever reason, no, couldn’t get there.
Nancy 06:44
That I think is, for me, the most difficult. That my child felt badly about himself. I know what it feels like for me on the days that I feel badly about myself. Over the course of my many decades on this planet. The fact that my son could not honor his beauty, his essence is so sad to me as his mom.
Margaret 07:10
I don’t know if getting angry at the disease would be helpful, that it not allowed him to do that. Rather than the sadness of him not being able to. He had something in the way of being able to, a big thing. He had the Hulk in the way of being able to.
Nancy 07:31
Right. From childhood.
Margaret 07:34
Yeah, from a standpoint of a person with addiction, when I would be in my own mind and body enough and not numb and medicating myself, to see pain in my child’s eye. To see them scared of my rage, to see my husband sadness of me being absent, though in the room. My disease be like you are the biggest piece of garbage made on earth. And you know how to get rid of that feeling?
Nancy: Exactly.
Margaret: And I couldn’t get out of that on my own. And I think that’s the piece that, you know, when you describe his qualities, deep thinker, emotionally intuitive, is the way I interpret what you said that he had that connection with people’s feelings sometimes are the hardest to surrender to recovery, in the simplicity of recovery.
Nancy 08:23
Right, this looking for some magic, some ethereal thing to come and swoop them up and
Margaret 08:31
Right, or using their brain to think their way out of it.
Nancy: Right?
Margaret: Because they’re so clever. And I don’t mean that disrespectfully of anyone who’s clever, I think it can be a barrier to simplifying our life to do what is needed in recovery.
Nancy 08:47
And Lucas did think he could think his way out of it.
Margaret 08:51
He wouldn’t be the first addict to do that. He won’t be the last. Sadly.
Nancy: Sadly
Margaret: So, has there been responses to Kardboard House that have been helpful? Since you wrote it for you?
Nancy 09:05
Yes. Yes, strangers, Lucas’s friends, one in particular, who’ve told me that Lucas saved his life, and he had no idea Lucas was struggling. That he helped a lot of people. A father, I don’t know how he heard about the book. Lost his daughter 15 years ago, and said when he read it, he was reliving and wish he had her here today to, I mean. Some professionals have asked me to participate and to speak. Yes, I think people have found something valuable in my story, in our story. Lucas’s and my story. And in our words, which
Margaret: Oh, I have no doubt.
Nancy: If I may just say Kardboard House, if anybody listens and is interested, is with the K, because I had somebody from, actually a facility here, say I can’t find your book. And they thought Kardboard House was with a C. But it’s with the K, it’s K AR D B O AR D House.
Margaret 10:25
And the link to it to be able to get it will be on the podcast information.
Nancy: Oh, thank you.
Margaret: I’ll make sure. So, can you talk about the name?
Nancy 10:34
Kardboard House. So, when Lucas was alive, and I was very involved in New York and The Freedom Institute, I said to him one day, I’m going to definitely do something in the recovery community. I don’t know what. And one night, I was writing, I wrote six names down and stuck them in a drawer, and never thought about them again. When I moved to Minnesota, I don’t even know where they were, because I didn’t see them. But Lucas was here visiting during that time, we went to the NarAnon meeting. And I opened a drawer, and there was the list of the six names. And I had a vision of Kardboard House, obviously the way it came to me in a particular way. And I asked him to pick the name. And he picked Kardboard House.
Margaret 11:20
Without knowing your vision?
Nancy 11:22
Without knowing that was my number one choice.
Margaret: Wow
Nancy: And I asked why. And he said, because when addiction enters a household, all the walls collapse. And that was how I came to it. I said what did it feel like being in my home? And I said this was so fragile. And suddenly the name Kardboard House came to me, but I put a k as opposed to a C. And that’s how Kardboard House got started.
Margaret 11:52
What was his line? When addiction
Nancy 11:55
enters the household, all the walls collapse.
Margaret 11:58
When addiction enters a household, all the walls collapse.
So, I’m having this visualization. It’s kind of random, but it’s interesting. I don’t know why. And I try not to analyze it too much. But there’s a beautiful, I think it’s beautiful, child’s book to understand addiction called ‘The Dragon That Lives in My House’.
Nancy: Oh!
Margaret: I know. So, there’s this dragon, the dad is the identified addict in this family of four. And as dad gets sicker, the dragon gets bigger to the point of pushing the family outside the house.
Nancy: Wow.
Margaret: And then dad goes into recovery. And he’s going around with sponsors and people who have their own dragons that are just little and sit on their shoulder. And Dad’s dragon gets smaller, and the family gets to get back in the house.
Nancy 12:44
I love that.
Margaret 12:45
I do too. But it speaks to Lucas’s statement in a different way.
Nancy 12:50
Because everything that was once familiar and known, goes away. Just
Margaret: Right,
Nancy: everything is broken.
Margaret 12:57
This is a train wreck. It’s the diseases that train and the first person it’s running over on the track is the person with the disease. And then all the family members are jumping on trying to reach the in your case, your son, and they’re getting knocked over to, but your son has no true awareness of the collateral damage behind him while he’s in his disease because his face is planted on that train because that’s my solution. And so, it does, it changes the dynamic within the family and the roles of family members adjust to the crisis and the chaos to survive.
Nancy 13:30
Lucas had said to me on more than one occasion when I was in family programs. Mom, I’m here now can’t you just erase everything and forget everything? I said look as I wish I could. It doesn’t work that way. I am not a chalkboard. You can’t just erase what’s been written on that board and having to start from square one all over again. This is going to take time, and trust, and experience, and rebuilding. That was a hard piece for him. He wanted me to just forget. I couldn’t just forget. it’s impossible and it wouldn’t have served either one of us either if I had just forgotten.
Margaret 14:14
It would have served the disease really well.
Nancy: Exactly.
Margaret: Because then we would have gone into doing the same behaviors that help the disease because we forgot the damage.
Nancy: Correct.
Margaret: What does Nancy’s story look like moving forward? We want you to find the joy. I know everyone out there listening is like oh I want that for Nancy even just more glimmers as God willing COVID goes away, and we can actually be around people again. But what does the story look like going forward for you?
Nancy 14:49
Well, I want to wake up in the morning and feel that I’m supposed to be here, part of the living and experiencing whatever the day has for me. I want to travel. I want to participate in the recovery community and help and add to whatever good there is out there to add to and be supportive in any way. I would like to find love again. I would, I imagine that.
I want to share my time with my good friends who I cherish and adore and couldn’t live without. And I want to continue to honor Lucas every single day in every way that I can, privately, collectively, or with the recovery or addiction communities.
I’d like to see some policy changes. I really would. If I can be instrumental in having some of those in charge, make some shifts into a different kind of recovery. I’m not sure that recovery, or treatment today is really doing what I think would be even more helpful. To those struggling.
Bumper: The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast
16:15
For me to think that I have gone from one listener to almost 5000 downloads of this podcast that just blows my mind and I’m so excited to see this expand and grow and reach more people.
I am grateful for the feedback I’ve been receiving of people saying it has given them tremendous value and support on their journey of recovery as family members. So, I’m calling out to all my listeners and I’m saying let’s grow this some more and in this being the second year of being in the business, my business Embrace Family Recovery I’d like to expand the content of the podcast.
So if you have any ideas, interest areas, people you think would be fabulous guests please send me an email my email address is Margaret@nullembracefamilyrecovery.com
I would love to expand the guests to include other types of addictions. We’ve mainly focused on substance use disorder, chemical addictions. I’d like to get some behavioral addictions in their food, sex gambling, gaming whatever aspect of this illness has affected you as a family member and how you found your way through the journey of the disease in active behavior or use and into recovery.
So, if you fit that category and you’re willing to share your story you know by now if you’re listening that this is a conversation. A place where we just share and that seems to be working as a way to offer people the chance to feel less isolated and know they’re not alone in this process.
So please reach out to me with ideas, be willing to be a guest.
Again my email is margaret@nullembracefamilyrecovery.com and thank you for all your support and let’s keep this growing and reaching more family members out there.
Please share this podcast with anyone who’s been touched by the disease of addiction.
Thanks, and take care of you!
This podcast is made possible by listeners like you. Can you relate to what you’re hearing? Never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.
Margaret 16:27
Your voice is important, Nancy. You have an experience that is invaluable to help with educating and supporting change for the interests of the families. That’s my bias, and the people who have the disease, so that we do better.
Nancy 16:47
Yes. And I think we can do better.
Margaret: I agree. I agree.
Nancy: A lot of people are struggling.
Margaret 16:59
Oh, absolutely. I was told early in my Al-Anon recovery, when are you going to stop settling for crumbs? That is something that I passionately want family members to not do!
Nancy: Settle for crumbs?
Margaret: Yes. Care for families is substandard, education for families is substandard.
Nancy: No question!
Margaret: Add to that the changes in treatment and things I would love to see different. My bias, my passion is reaching the families because they deserve so much more support, help to navigate the insanity and tsunami of the disease of addiction.
Nancy 17:39
I applaud you, stand with you. And if I can help you in any way count on me.
Margaret 17:45
You are by doing this. And writing your book. Those are very valuable pieces.
A. to not have to feel alone.
B. to be courageous enough to put voice to grief when grief still sometimes feels like a dirty word.
Nancy: A shame
Margaret: and yet every one of us goes through it.
Nancy: Yes.
Margaret: And I wonder Nancy, I I’ve been trained in some traumatic grief work that I cherish. And I found myself sitting in the training going, am I inviting this to my house by being here? I wonder how much of that is what keeps people from embracing those in the grieving process and journey?
Nancy: Say that again?
Margaret: When I sat in the training, my intellectual, my passion, my desire to learn all in. That little voice in my head was going am I inviting this to my home? Am I getting prepared for something terrible to happen?
Nancy 18:45
Like my voice had said do not erase?
Margaret 18:48
Yes. And I wonder if that’s the stop for people when they see someone in their world in pain with such a difficult loss, that they’re scared to go to close because they’re terrified to look at how it makes them feel. And what if I’m inviting this to my home, which is, it’s not rational.
Nancy 19:08
No, but people are afraid. I can tell you that people that I thought would not go away, went away. I heard from everybody. Including, to go back to treatment facilities. Lucas went to four. Nobody ever called me once when he left to see how I was, to see what I was doing to participate in the in the recovery community, to stay connected to the family, to other family members. Nothing, void, zero.
So, I highlight that as something really that needs to be looked at. You know, people I’ve heard, people don’t know how to go there. They don’t want to think about it. They don’t want to associate with that being part of life, because what if. I don’t know, but for me, I wish people could do better. We’re all part of this living, human experience, and we all share many of the same human emotions and grief is one of them. And how I show up for my fellow human being, is really important to me. And there have been times I wish other people would have shown up for me that way.
Margaret 20:45
So, I think this is a really potentially helpful piece to share if you’re willing, in the five-year process, after losing, Lucas, what would you have wanted from people? What do you want from people in the way of support? Help people out there who truly do want to be there, but are just scared, and don’t know what to say or do? Which seems really selfish on our part that we have to ask you, the person who’s in this grief, to teach us. But if you’d be so kind, I think it could help people.
Nancy 21:19
First, I want people to come towards me much more often than they do. Even if I don’t pick up the phone, or it takes me a little bit to get back with a text or an email. If you don’t know how to say, how are you because you’re afraid of what I’m going to say? Because you don’t know how you’re going to respond. Just ask me how I’m doing today. How are you today? I think the today piece makes a difference.
I want everybody to know that I want to talk about Lucas.
Margaret: Yes!
Nancy: I want to talk about Lucas. I want people to talk about Lucas. I want them to share their stories. I want them to tell me the same ones over and over and over again. If they don’t have any more. I want them to remember Lucas. And I want people to say, do you want to talk about him? Because that kind of embracing means they’re not cutting off the part of me that is the biggest part of me right now.
Margaret 22:21
Beautifully said! It’s so simple. And yet we overcomplicate it.
Nancy 22:27
It is simple. You know, I was visiting someone. And I don’t want to say when. And I came to a place that Lucas and I had been. And I was with a couple people. And I stopped frozen in my tracks, and went, Oh, I was with Lucas at this place. And I don’t know what happened. But I got this nauseous wave that you get. And I got very choked up and you know, there was a hand on my shoulder. And that was it. And the tears are pouring out of my eyes. And nobody could say anything. And I was like, this is dangerous for me. Because it’s not good to be genuine in my feelings and not be around people who can be with me.
Margaret 23:23
I think that’s exactly what it comes down to. For people with this disease and people with grief. We want someone to come alongside us who will accept us, understand, if not fully/personally know it, willing to hear it and give us validation in what we feel.
Nancy 23:44
And might think we’re overstaying our visit. It’s too long to for them to. But then I guess they’ll have to go away.
Margaret 23:49
That’s right. And I agree and respect that. Who has the right to say how long that visit lasts? And how the journey looks? Nobody, lest you walk in my shoes, how dare you judge what I am going through?
Nancy: Correct.
Margaret: So, I would assume based on what you just shared, you have found the people at least a few that sit and be with you in it.
Nancy 24:20
I have some remarkable friends. I’m very lucky, really lucky.
Margaret 24:25
My guess is they’d say the same.
Nancy 24:27
Thank you. I hope so.
Margaret 24:30
I could do a little research, but I’d guess they’d say the same. I thank you. I thank you for putting voice to a subject that people don’t want to touch, and yet needs so much touch and compassion. I thank you for sharing about Lucas and I agree with you talk about him, always and hear about him. Have stories shared with you. He’s gone but he’s never gone.
Nancy 24:59
Thank you. This was a wonderful opportunity and more people hopefully will know Lucas after today and maybe get a little bit of a glimmer, if they know somebody in my shoes, what they might be able to do to offer some gentle, loving care.
Margaret 25:19
Couldn’t have said it better. I believe that will happen. And I hope that they will choose to pick up your book. ‘Kardboard House’ is a profound read. And I remember earlier you said my fear was doing anything that would not show love and respect for Lucas. I want you to know you did not disrespect or dishonor your son in any way by sharing both your and his truth. And you will help people and already are by being able to read the story for themselves in the quiet of their own mind and home. And help them feel less alone.
Nancy 25:57
And anybody can reach out. You know, I’m here.
Margaret 26:01
Yeah, I saw you had your information in the back of the book for people to find you. And I will put that on the website with the information about the podcast.
Nancy 26:08
You’re doing tremendous work. And I’m glad you found me no accident there. As I said,
Margaret: No,
Nancy: not a surprise. And I look forward to talking to you again.
Margaret 26:19
I also do and I just thank you for spending the time with me and I know you’re gonna help a lot of people through sharing your story again.
Nancy: Thank you.
Margaret: Take good care of you,
Nancy 26:27
You too. Thank you.
Margaret 26:30
I want to thank Nancy, for sharing her story and being willing to offer us ideas on how we can do better when supporting someone in their grief journey. It feels selfish to ask the griever how we can best help. But her generous sharing may assist us in doing the best possible job in loving someone through their grief journey.
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story.
Please find resources on my website
embracefamilyrecovery.com
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you!
