Today is the final episode with Zoe and Heather. We speak about their recovery and how each family member has their path, challenges, and victories.
This family has a level of respect that is beautiful to hear and a willingness to accept each other and their individuality.
What a delight it was to hear Zoe share her truth so candidly and courageously. A privilege to witness a mother’s love and guidance in a painful journey at times. Their story demonstrates the joy, hope, and the power of education regarding this family disease of addiction.
Addiction will rob us of joy and playfulness if we let it. So we play the Rapid Fire Game – a way to remember to have fun.
See full transcript below.
00:01
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Margaret 00:27
Welcome back to the final episode with Zoey and her mom, Heather. If you haven’t heard the previous parts of their story, feel free to listen to episode 46 and 47 available wherever you stream your podcasts or on my website, embracefamilyrecovery.com. Today, we will talk more about healing from the disease of addiction. Zoey, and Heather continue to work a recovery program. And it is tremendous to see that they are connected and able to speak about difficult things and be able to learn and grow and evolve with their recovery. Let’s get back to Zoe and Heather.
01:15
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast
Margaret 01:28
So I want to know Heather how you have been able to heal and let go of the anger and resentment. What’s that journey been like for you?
Heather 01:39
You know, it’s been a long journey. (laughter) It took me a long time when he came back from the sober house. And you know, he wanted to be a part of the kids’ lives, it took me a long time to let go of that control. And to let him parent and to let him even be a part of making decisions. I mean, I definitely have control issues.
Zoe: Yes!
I mean, not in a bad way.
Margaret 02:13
It’s fascinating, right? Our kids can see it so much quicker than we can in us.
Zoe 02:17
Yeah, yes. And I think definitely having her as the control parent, when we’re younger, has like have a lasting effect, like doctor’s appointments and stuff issue saying, I always want her to be there instead. And I think that my dad’s has noticed that within the past few years that I follow her lead and whatever she says goes, and like I want her. And not like over him, but like I would prefer her, you know, parent teacher conferences and whatever. And I think he’s noticing that more now that we’re older that I’d rather have her there. And so, because I’m just so used to her, if that makes any sense.
Margaret 02:57
It absolutely makes sense. And it’s a concept that I would wonder when you think about it. Zoe is it mum was stable and consistent. So at least I knew I could rely on her. Was it? How do I learn to trust dad after I didn’t have that ability?
Zoe 03:12
Yeah, I think it’s just growing up that she was the parent. And like, I know, it sounds kind of stupid. But I didn’t see him as my dad. He was my dad, but he was like a human shell, if that makes any sense when I was younger, so I see her more as a human like I’ve known her longer.
Margaret 03:33
I think it makes total sense. I think when a person has this disease, there’s a buffer between them in the world. And what we know is what that buffer allows through. And so, it’s like you’re getting to know dad sober for the first time.
Zoe 03:48
Yeah, so eight or nine is when I was “ meeting”, like who he actually was without alcohol. And that’s a lot different knowing someone for eight years, then, like my whole life, even though I’ve known him my whole life, it’s just like he was not him.
Margaret 04:07
How has trust rebuilt? People ask that all the time? How will I ever trust so and so again? Like, how has that happened?
Zoe 04:20
I don’t know. I mean, it’s definitely gonna be a work in progress for ever, I guess, because I was so young and when you’re young, you’re like a sponge. It’s still work in progress, but he’s definitely my dad now. And like, I can trust him with things and whatever, just working on trusting him as much as my mom.
Margaret 04:46
Okay, how about for you?
Heather 04:47
Even after he came back from the sober house. I really never had a fear that he would relapse. And I don’t know why I never had that fear. I just didn’t have that fear. He expressed that you know, it was never really the drinking that he liked, he drank to escape, it wasn’t that he liked alcohol, or that he liked feeling that way. I think he told me that once and I never worried that he would relapse.
My dad has been a completely different story. And it’s still a constant like, is he drinking, is he not drinking? You know, he lapsed many, many, many times throughout his post rehab year, and I never trusted and still don’t trust that he won’t drink even though he says the same things. So, I really don’t know what the difference is. But still learning, you know, to trust his decision making and to follow through is even this far down the road is still a problem for me sometimes.
Margaret 05:49
Which probably speaks to your identifying of yourself the control piece, right? The letting go.
Heather: Yes.
Margaret: Cause though you say you trust he won’t relapse, or at this point, don’t fear that there’s a fear of follow through, or responsibility not being met?
Heather 06:09
I think that’s part of it. I think that I’m probably a bit of a martyr in the responsibility world. And I have to do this, and I have to be the one that makes the decisions. Because I’ve always been the one that makes the decisions. Sometimes I do still see, I call them like, addict personality traits. Where if he’s upset about something, it’s this person’s fault, or it’s that person’s fault, or it’s, it’s not my fault that I have this feeling. And that’s something that, I guess I learned, and it’s one of the biggest things that I want for myself and for my kids to understand is that you have to take responsibility for your actions, and you have to take responsibility for your decisions. And the decisions that you make are not someone else’s fault. And I still see that sometimes. And that’s a really hard thing for me to let go of, I think like, this is not my fault, that you’re unhappy, but I still try to figure out how I can fix it.
Margaret 07:18
Well, I think that’s the key right there that I hear that I resonate with, is if someone else is unhappy, how do I fix it? Not our job. We haven’t got the capacity to fix it for them. And yet, that’s our trigger.
So, I’m curious, you know, you bring up something really interesting. I’m a recovering food addict. That’s my drug of no choice. I have done with food what people do with alcohol could have mainlined sugar I would have right like I mean, it was nuts. My youngest child never saw me eating sugar. So candy, ice cream, right? Because that’s not part of my meal plan. I remember I, we went to an event and there was a mom sucking on a pop a sucker. And she was like, Oh, my God, mom. But she’s she’s eating that like, oh, my gosh, freaked out. Because a mom was eating something I never ate and just thought all moms didn’t eat them. So that was the first memory and the other memory was I’d be picking them up from school or something. And I’d be crabby. And they’d be like, Mom, did you have sugar today? So, they would ask me these questions, because my behavior? Well, for my eldest reminded me of when I was in the food, because I was very angry, very moody, very ugly. I mean, it’s a hard chapter to look back on. And what you both bring up is, we as people with the disease of addiction, can put down the substance of no choice can do that and stay clean. But if we don’t do the recovery work, our behaviors don’t change.
Heather: Right.
Zoe: Yup.
Heather: Yeah.
Margaret: And I don’t know if your husband is active in his recovery or not. But that’s a factor that weighs into it.
Heather: Yeah,
Zoe: yeah.
Heather 09:05
Yeah. And no, he’s not. But then, you know, who am I to judge because I’m not going to Al-Anon meetings.
Margaret 09:10
Well, that’s a very insightful observation, Heather, because I flip on both sides of this. So as a family member, we can get indignant, almost like really, you’re not doing what you need to be doing. You got to look in the mirror and say, what are we not doing?
Heather: Yup
Margaret: You know, so I’m glad you’re not judging. The other thing that I think is so powerful and important to share is you’ve role model to your children, help as normal help as good help as accessible, do what you need to do to get it. I believe everything we do in our recovery programs, has far greater influence on our children than anything we tell them to do or not do. And so, if I’m not active in my program, and I’m feeling crispy, my term I know I need help because I’m not myself. My kids will notice, but they’ll also notice when I get the help how different I am to deal with. And so the message that I hope families out there here is, we’re going to have our ups and downs, we’re going to be very invested in our recoveries at different times, and other times we’re not. We have the tools at our fingertips to help us be less martyred and less controlling, begin to trust more. And just get back to them. harm, no foul on what it takes, just get back to them. Because then you say to your kids, we’re works in progress. We got more to do.
Heather: Right?
Margaret: Never anything wrong with that.
Heather: Yeah.
Margaret: And I think COVID has impacted this greatly for a lot of people. I think so too.
Heather 10:36
I mean, while I think it’s great that the Children’s Program can reach so many more kids in different states, during the time that we were online, the last thing I wanted to do was get on another Google meeting at five o’clock at night, I would have rather poked my eyes out, than get out another Google meeting and not have a face to face conversation. I would rather sit across from somebody and wear a mask than I would look at a computer for another hour. And I just, you know, I get those alerts at night on Monday nights for the parents group. And I’m like, I just can’t, I can’t look at a computer. I can’t do it. And I know selfishly that it’s not my core group of people.
Margaret: So, is that also part of why you accept your husband not being in program? Because if I’m not willing to see the adaption that I have to take to keep my growth and my recovery, then I’m not going to judge him?
Heather: Probably? Yeah.
Margaret: I think it’s interesting. It’s reflective for me on my own process through COVID. And when I’ve joined, and when I haven’t, and what excuses I’ve used to not, and there are plenty. You know, we’re good at making excuses on both sides of the coin. It’s how do I feel after I go? Can we remember and tap into that? Rather than let time go by and forget, how valuable it is for us.
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12:38
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Margaret 12:49
So what would you tell other kids out there Zoe, about your journey and the things you’ve done? What’s been the most helpful? What would you wish for other kids to find?
Zoe 13:05
I think that kids to go into recovery and have a lasting impact and not just go to recovery and then kind of in their adult years, just forget about it and not really take anything into account. But I think when I went through recovery or the program, I really took it into full stride and kind of pushed it a little further, which is kind of like oh my gosh, look at me, I’m so great. But it’s like, I really took it in and like ran with it and started sharing our story. And then it kind of evolved from that from like, one project and then to a convention and then to a video. And I hope more people do that. So more people can share their story.
Margaret 13:53
You are a remarkable young woman. Zoe. It’s never, you don’t come across as egotistical you come across as someone who’s just willing to share their truth and has been thoughtful about the process you’ve lived through. And that’s remarkable.
I love even the language that that I want children to find their own recovery. You know what I mean? Like to go through the program and have your own recovery, I think about you know how they’re for your children that they get to college say and maybe there is a struggle, I don’t even mean with substance but just you know, struggle, it’s gonna be a hell of a lot easier for them to go to the RA and share something or go find the counseling clinic on campus and find an Al-Anon group that’s around, you know, they’ve got that start from being exposed to this program. Do you have any regret about them going through the children’s program?
Heather 14:43
Absolutely not. I mean, you know, I tell everybody that I know about it, and I have hopefully directed a lot of people to it. It was life changing for all of us.
Margaret 14:55
Well, I think the powerful part in my witness it, and I’m a big advocate of it. Also, I love that you’re both here sharing about it because I wanted so badly to get an alumni of the Children’s Program at Hazelden Betty Ford to share their story. And you’ve done that. I think of the experience of when you get the chance to say to your parent, in the part of the program where you write something, draw something, explain something about how their disease has affected you, how empowering to one, separate it, and two express it and have your sober parent at that time, hear it, understand the disease’s impact on you. The empowerment and the permission to speak your truth and to not live for the disease and to to understand the disease is separate. And I gosh such great stuff. I mean, if we don’t have this disease in our family, we’re blessed because the numbers are so high, it’s in most families. But if we think about going out socially and into the world, as young people having the education your two children have about this. To hopefully make really careful sound choices, but also be able to be supportive and understanding and directional sometimes with their peer community.
Heather 16:10
Yeah, and just the understanding that I have now, you know, and I think Zoe’s the same way because I am not secretive about it. I have a number of friends who come to me and say I think my husband’s an alcoholic. I think my brother’s an alcoholic, what would you do? You know, so what do I do?
Margaret 16:26
Great knowledge to have for sure. Right. And like you said earlier, this disease obviously is not one we would choose for anyone we love. However, there is a solution. And a way to be healthy with this disease that a lot of other diseases don’t have. You two emulate the other piece of it that there’s a we in recovery, meaning you’re not ever alone unless you choose to be you have a community Zoe has a community of people she’s grown up with who’ve been in this journey, as does Hunter and also you and your husband. Both can lean into recovery communities that other illnesses don’t have. So, you two are open books.
Heather: Yes,
Zoe: Pretty much. Yes.
Margaret: What about the other two in the family?
Heather 17:12
Not as much, No. Definitely not Hunter. Hunter is a kid that has always been very reserved, and does not talk about his feelings. He doesn’t like to talk about his feelings. He doesn’t want to talk about his feelings. After I got past how are you going to make my kids not be an alcoholic? It was how are you going to make him talk about his feelings. And they just said he’s you know, even if he doesn’t talk about it, he’s absorbing it. And he’s hearing it and he has the tools. And he may never be an open book. But he knows what he needs to do.
Zoe 17:49
And I think he uses the excuse of, oh, well, I don’t want to go Zoe’s going I don’t want to go if daddy’s going. I don’t want to go if mom’s going. So, it’s kind of that like butt heads sort of siblings using excuses of like, eah,
Heather 18:03
I don’t want to talk about my feelings.
Zoe: Yes.
Margaret 18:06
So it’s interesting mom, Heather, that when we have this situation in our family, so you’ve got your spouse who’s doing what he needs to do, is staying sober in the marriage is continuing. And when that seems to be, okay, then what are we gonna look at next and figure out how to navigate it and make it be okay. And so, I call this us heat seeking missiles for someone to fix. And so, it’s interesting you share it so candidly that, you know, okay, so once I got to the point of okay, I can’t make them not be alcoholic, but how can I make them open up? And, you know, it’s just fascinating how that component of us, is why we work our program, because it’s not going to go away. It may not happen with our spouse, but it will happen with another member of the family.
Heather: If I can’t save you, I’m going to save you.
Margaret: Right. And I think it’s lovely that you got the feedback from the Children’s Program that he has absorbed, been exposed and has tools. Trust that. You all do.
Heather: Yeah.
Zoe 19:09
I mean, he has said before, like I said, like, I’m never gonna drink alcohol. Like he’s like, I don’t want to do that. I mean, he said that we said that since we were little, like, we don’t want to ever drink alcohol sort of thing.
Margaret 19:21
And as you said earlier, that may change right? Like you too may decide that’s different. What I would leave this, this in your mind to think about which I’m sure you’ve heard before, but if not, other people might not have. The thing I taught my children because we have the disease in our family is you have the predisposition, and nobody in our family knows who’s going to have it or who isn’t. And realistically in our society who does not audition for the part of addiction. The only person I know is someone who never touches a drop or a nicotine or anything that’s the only person who doesn’t audition for the part. And what happens with this disease, If we have it, it clicks, and we’re off to the races? If we don’t, it’s social, and we’re okay. So, what I’ve encouraged my children to do, I’ve told them, I hope you really think about how early you introduce it to your life. Because what we do know about the frontal cortex is it takes to 25/26 to come online. So, the later you’re introducing anything, the more development you have. And again, there’s no guarantee even then, and kids aren’t going to do necessarily that. But I figure at least I can communicate that with them. And they have that, and they tell their friends that a lot, which I find fascinating.
Heather: That is, I’m gonna use that.
Margaret: Good. Go for it.
Heather: Yes
Margaret: It won’t guarantee anything. But if it gives them a better chance to have their brain development, you know, in fact, before and obviously, when kids go to college, the pressure steps up as they age, but we have no control over who has it. And who doesn’t, unfortunately. So, is there anything you haven’t shared, you wanted to share? Either of you?
21:04
Heather: I mean, it’s definitely still a work in progress.
Zoe: Always will be,
Margaret 21:10
I do a lot
Heather 21:13
of trying to keep myself in check. And you know, when I get frustrated, like I said before, when I get frustrated with something, how can I take responsibility for what it is that’s making me frustrated? I feel like I’ve done a good job of keeping different people’s moods in the family. You know, this is what’s bothering you. It’s not something that I did. And it’s not something I can fix, but it’s hard to not get upset or angry or judgmental.
Margaret 21:38
So my language, we get triggered.
Heather and Zoe: Yes.
Margaret: And when we get triggered my words, monkey chatter starts, and the monkey Chatter is trying to figure out the story behind the trigger reaction, and what’s going on with them? And how can I fix them? And are they okay, or should I do this? Should I do that? I’m so frustrated, but I can’t let that go. Blah blah, that’s what happens. What tools do you two identify work for you? When you’re triggered? What recovery tools do you use that you really like, that have helped you?
Heather 22:14
I think, for me, just being mindful of it.
And I’m an exerciser. So that’s what I use to keep sane.,
Margaret: Nothing wrong with that. You know, I think finding the outlet that works for us. What about you, Zoe?
Zoe 22:30
I think just not leaving the situation. Because I mean, that’s not really healthy to just kind of put it off, behind you. But having an escape, to like kind of bring yourself back down to like she said, like mindfulness, like going to school, which is kind of a stupid one. But it’s having a different world from being at home. Or if like something’s happening at school than being at homes, a different world than being at school. So, it’s kind of having different worlds that you can separate yourself from.
Margaret 23:05
So, it’s interesting. Your brother who doesn’t want to do feelings, meets you who’s like, blah, blah blah not walking away. We’re going to deal with this right now. Right here. It must just be so much fun.
Zoe: (laughter)
Heather: Not so much.
Heather 23:22
Not so much right now.
Margaret 23:22
Facetious as that was yes, I have two children that also, butt heads, to put it mildly. So, I understand the challenge. But that’s again, an example of working the tools of this program. I am powerless over making their relationship different. And I have to accept that.
Zoe 23:41
Like I was saying, definitely the side of me of being a sister is like, well, it’s kind of all his fault. Because like, I’m the best sister out there, no I am not. I mean, I definitely could be better, but he is that type of brother to nag me on. And she’s like, well, you egg him on to and I’m like, I think definitely I try more so to be nice to him. And he’s just
Heather: he gets triggered very easily.
Zoe: Yeah.
Heather: Very easily.
Zoe: And he’s in he’s definitely he’s, he’s a hard one. But we definitely butt heads because our personalities are very different.
Margaret 24:24
And again, thank heavens you have outlets that aren’t family sometimes to go to, right?
Zoe 24:29
Yes. I mean, we go to the same school thank God he’s leaving for college, which sounds kind of selfish of me, but two different worlds, of him being away at college and like being at home without him. It’s gonna be nice.
Margaret 24:46
We’ll have to check back in a year and see if that’s accurate.
Heather: Yes.
Margaret: So let’s end on a light note. One of the things I used to do in my family program time when I was in person would end with like a little rapid fire. Little lightness because one of the things about recovery we forget to laugh, right? We don’t. We don’t enjoy our life as much as as we could because we’re so serious all the time with fear and triggers and worries. Okay, so don’t overthink it. Okay, we’ll start off easy. What’s your favorite color?
Zoe: Blue.
Heather: Purple?
Margaret: Okay, beach or mountain?
Zoe 25:24
The mountains.
Heather: That’s a tough one for me. It’s 50/50
Margaret 25:28
I don’t know if we allow 5050 You got to choose, mom.
Heather 25:34
Okay I’m more of a mountain girl.
Margaret 25:35
Not me beach all the way. I mean, I love the mountains, but beach. Okay, favorite pizza toppings?
25:42
Zoe: Ooh, artichoke hearts.
Margaret 25:45
Oh, no, we were meant to be friends. That’s awesome. How about Heather?
Heather 25:51
Ooh, that’s the Papa John’s. Gourmet veggie.
Margaret 25:55
Sounds good to. If you could go anywhere in the world on a vacation, where would you want to go?
Zoe: Thailand.
Margaret: Ooh,
Heather 26:03
I would love to do the Nordic countries.
Margaret 26:07
Mmm. Your favorite movie?
Zoe 26:10
Moonrise Kingdom.
Margaret 26:11
I’m writing that down. I don’t know it.
Heather 26:15
Mine would have to be Top Gun because I watched it 140 times at least.
Zoe: That is a good movie.
Margaret 26:21
well, your top gun was my Grease. (laughter) Do you have a favorite book? Do you like to read?
Zoe 26:28
The One and Only Ivan? It’s kind of a middle school book. That is a good book.
Margaret 26:34
Love it. My kid made me read it.
Heather: Anything Kristi Hannah or Jodi Picoult
Margaret: Whoa, Jodi Picoult. All the way. Love her books.
Zoe: Patricia Polacco.
Margaret: What’d she write?
Zoe: They’re children’s books.
Heather 26:48
They’re children’s books but they’re amazing. Look at them sometime. Patricia Polacco.
Margaret 26:51
How about Todd Carr? Do you know him? It’s okay to be okay? No, he does a lot of vibrant colors. And it’s like it’s okay to wear glasses. It’s okay to have freckles. It’s okay to be short, remember that book fondly with my children. You got one, a question? Rapid fire.
27:10
Zoe: If you were to have a superpower, what would it be?
Margaret 27:12
Fly? So I could be near people I love faster.
Zoe & Heather: That’s a good one.
Margaret: What about you guys?
Zoe 27:20
If not flying. I think being invisible would be cool.
Heather: Me too (laughter)
Margaret 27:26
I think that would fuel my codependency a little too much.
Heather: Right. (laughter)
Margaret: Like it though. superpower. Any others?
Heather 27:36
City or small town?
Zoe: Small Town.
Margaret 27:40
Gotta go city. Yeah, not New York but City.
Zoe 27:44
They make my heart happy, small towns.
Margaret 27:46
Small town also. And are you in a small town where you live?
Heather 27:50
Oh no, we live in Denver.
Margaret 28:08
Your wish for yourself when it comes to recovery. If you you know want to continue in your growth, what would your wish for yourself be?
Heather 28:18
I think for me, it would be, to be more mindful of like you say my triggers the things that stress me out. I need to really rein that in.
Zoe 28:29
That’s a hard one. trust to full max of 100% Trust, which I guess is very, you know, hard and probably impossible. But you know.
Margaret 28:44
Both of those are really insightful answers to recognize your growth and still the work to be done. Right?
Zoe: Yes.
Margaret: So, it sounds like the disease greatly impacted trust for both of you, but manifests maybe in different ways. I love those. If you had the ability to share your wish for your spouse and your son and their recovery moving forward.
Zoe 29:06
Hunter to share his feelings better.
Heather 29:09
I think yeah, Hunter to be confident that he has the tools to navigate whatever he needs to navigate. For Jeremy, I think it’s probably the same as for me, to be mindful of the things that trigger him and stress him out and to know what he needs to do to keep that in perspective.
Margaret 29:33
My humble opinion on that for my own recovery work is the only way I do that well is if I have a sponsor in my life. Because I am blind to my own stuff, but I can see other people’s stuff great.
Heather: Yep.
Margaret: And so my sponsor’s my mirror, and if I don’t have that, my monkey will keep me totally outwards, and I won’t get the help I need to see my own triggers.
Heather: Yeah, absolutely.
Margaret: Is that part of your recovery Zoe? Were you encouraged to look for like a mentor/sponsor?
Zoe 30:06
I mean, I have the counselors of Betty Ford, obviously. I mean, I think sponsors for kids is not really a big thing. But for teens or older teens. That’s kind of
Margaret: when you start.
Zoe: Yeah. And I mean, Al-Anon, or Alateen is kind of
Heather 30:28
Alateen is got big here. I don’t know if Alateen is big anywhere. But from what I’ve heard, it’s a hard thing to keep going.
Zoe: Yeah.
Margaret 30:35
That’s why it’s so remarkable. Zoe, that you’ve had your group for so long. Because I hear that a lot about Alateen, that it’s harder to keep it going and keep people in it. I guess that’s a great follow up question that leads me to is, with the counselors that you’ve met, and the people you know, in your program, Zoe, is it okay to call and do they call back?
Zoe 30:55
They always have, of course, like the community like phone number, but they do give out personal phone numbers that they give out to just the teen groups. And if you contact them, they try and contact back to you as soon as possible.
Margaret: Wow.
Heather 31:12
Yeah, they’re great.
Margaret 31:14
And as a parent to have that reassurance know there’s another adult in their world that will look out for them and be there and call you if you’re needed.
Outro: It has been a bucket list item of mine since starting this podcast. I have wanted to have someone who graduated from the Children’s Program at Hazelden Betty Ford come on and share their story. Not only did I get that with Zoe, I got so much more with both Zoe and Heather being willing to share their story as mother and daughter on this journey of recovery from the disease of addiction.
I thank them for being a part of the podcast. What a delight to hear a young person share their truth so candidly, and courageously, and to witness a mother’s love and guidance in what is a painful journey at times, and to see the joy and hope in their story.
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story.
Please find resources on my website.
embracefamilyrecovery.com
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you
