Zoe and her mom Heather return today and share more about how the Hazelden Betty Ford Children’s Program has assisted the whole family in healing from the disease of addiction.
Empowerment means the process of becoming stronger and more confident, especially in controlling one’s life. I hope you hear Zoe’s confidence in her education and the permission for her to set boundaries and speak her truth. Listening to this 15-year-old is truly inspiring, and it fills me with hope. I believe this episode demonstrates well the need and benefits of keeping communication open with your children as they change and grow.
Children typically observe things and mentally try to figure them out for themselves.
Education is vital to empowerment and teaches children to separate the disease from the person and not take responsibility for their loved one’s addiction.
See full transcript below.
00:01
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Margaret 00:27
Welcome back to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, you’re in for a real treat today. In the last episode, Heather and her tremendous daughter Zoe joined me and began sharing about their generational family illness of addiction. Today, you get to hear more from Zoe, who is one of the most articulate 15 year olds I have ever met. We will pick up the conversation with Zoe sharing more about her experience in the children’s program when she was at a mere seven and a half years old. Let’s get back to the show.
01:05
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
Margaret 01:18
There’s a lot of parents out there who are trepidatious about sending their kids to a children’s program, will they learn worse things? Will they be traumatized? Will they be scared? How do they do it? How does it actually work? How does it help? So, I know that’s a lot of questions. But let’s start with how was the four day for you?
Zoe 01:35
All I can really remember is that it was fun. I mean, of course you have a lot of nerves going in because it’s new people and whatever. But they started out with games and introducing ourselves. And then we kind of started learning about things. But it was still like games, and they had like fun, like movies or videos about things that were fun. And then we went swimming, always. We always went swimming, or now it’s bowling. So, they always have a fun activity. And then we come back, and we learn, you know more things, but it was all through games and stuff. So, it wasn’t scary or traumatizing as you would think it would be.
Margaret 02:16
And what do you think the biggest learning piece that helped was like. If you identified what you gained out of it, what do you think was the most helpful for you Zoe in the situation?
Zoe 02:27
I think it was like realizing what was causing his behaviors and why it was happening and that he was not a bad person, and that he was just doing bad things. And that it was not his fault that he was doing it that like they almost put addiction into a person through the Beamer Books that like addiction was grabbing him and like, it wasn’t him, but it was the disease that he had.
Margaret 02:58
So, what I’m hearing is for parents and families out there, as you learned at a tender age of seven and a half or eight, to start separating dad from his disease.
Zoe: Yes
Margaret: That the two ran together, but they’re separate within him and the disease changes dad and makes him do things that he would normally not do.
Zoe 03:17
Yes, exactly.
Margaret 03:19
And you said big words there. You said the disease’s, not his fault.
Zoe: Yes.
Margaret: Did you blame him? Were you confused? Did you feel it was his fault? Did that help?
Zoe 03:30
I think when I was younger, like I don’t really remember my thought process at six or seven. But I think that he was choosing to do this like, not like choosing but that like it was his choice to drive to the bar and drink and then come home and act funny. But now I realized that it wasn’t really a choice.
Margaret 03:56
Remarkable.
So, I’m curious Heather as your children are learning this is a no-fault disease, and it’s not his choice, and you’re navigating the ramifications of his behavior. Were you in the same place?
Heather 04:07
Um, so my, my huge drive to get them into the Children’s Program was to make them not be alcoholics.
Margaret 04:19
Heard that many times?
Heather 04:21
Yes! I mean, that was my drive. You have to teach them that they cannot be alcoholics. What are we going to do to make sure that they will never ever grow up to be alcoholics, and that was all I cared about? So of course, they do two days in the parents do a day. And so, in that day, you know, we kind of learned what they were learning. And I had been through the family week earlier that year, and kind of started to come around to it’s a disease that you know, I still would fall back on, it’s a disease but it’s a choice. It’s a disease but you still choose to go drink. I was still very angry and resentful that he even though we knew it was a disease, he was choosing to drive to the bar to drink. And he did come up for that weekend, he came up and did the two days with me, and then the one full day with the kids in the program. So, I think, though, that that was the first time that I was like, oh, maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You know, maybe he is starting to see. And I really wanted him to understand his impact on them. And so, I was still selfishly being like, this is what you did to them. You need to see what you did to them.
Margaret 05:38
So, you were starting to get to the point of separating him from the disease. But when the anger flared, it was him.
05:45
Heather: Yeah, absolutely. Which I think
Margaret 05:47
is not uncommon. I think we all go through that. If there’s a relapse, the anger comes back, and it’s him or her versus the disease manipulating and the lack of working their program. So you mentioned that Hunters older and he went through. And I know he’s not with us to speak for himself. Was his experience similar or different than yours? Zoe do you know?
Zoe 06:10
I think he understood what it was from when I would say that he’s drunk, he’s drunk, he’d be like, No, he’s not. He was kind of like a big protector of my dad, and to make excuses for his choices. And I think he kind of realized that he didn’t have to do that, in that he didn’t have to cover it up, which was a different experience from kind of learning about what it is and like, how it’s affecting him that Hunter was old enough to kind of try and protect him. And then he was realizing that he didn’t have to do.
Margaret 06:49
So as Hunters role was a protector, what was your role?
Zoe 06:53
I was just Zoe, just living my life kind of figuring out like, how to take care of myself. And just like any other seven-year-old, I was just living life as Zoe.
Heather 07:08
I think I was much more influential on Zoe’s thoughts in decisions. She definitely picked up on, you know, my anger and my blame, and she kind of would follow my lead. She was very intuitive as to how I was feeling and what I was doing. And she would say, I don’t want to have to lay in my bed because he’s drunk, and he’s gonna pass out and then he’s not gonna get out of my bed. And I would say, yeah, you just have to say, you know, no, he can’t come in your room. So, I think I had much more influence on her thoughts than I did on Hunters. Hunter was very much the protector and the denier. And no, he’s not drunk. No, he’s not. He hasn’t been drinking that much. He’s not that drunk.
Margaret 07:56
So, I’m curious on that, because Heather you bring up a good point. First of all, I think the most influential person in a child’s life is the same gendered parent. So, it makes a lot of sense. The other thing is, I wonder, Zoe, if you’ve been more of the truth speaker, like you say what you say, you put it out there. Do you think that’s true?
Zoe 08:15
Yeah, I definitely say what I think, especially when I was younger, like I said, I would sit at the dinner table, and I’d look up and I’d be like, he’s drunk. Like, I was just very blunt about like, no. and like what I would say, I mean, more so when he was drunk, I knew he was more of a scary person. So, I wasn’t as blunt with him, but I would kind of still have those boundaries of like, wake up. I want to go to bed. Like, I don’t want you to lay here with me. I want mommy instead sort of thing.
08:49
Margaret 08:52
As things have gone forward. Has dad stayed sober? Since he lived at the Sober House?
Zoe: Yes.
Margaret: Have you stayed married?
Heather 08:59
Yes. So, he came back in December, after some weekends home over that fall. into December. He came back and move back in and in February of that year, I unfiled for divorce, and decided that we needed to try to make this work.
Margaret 09:24
And in that time period leading up to taking the divorce off the table. Had you actually started doing Al-Anon for yourself?
Heather 09:32
When my mom could be here I would. If my mom was in Denver, she didn’t live in Denver full time, at that point. If she was up here, she would come and watch them so I could go to an Al-Anon meeting. And the Wednesday night groups for the Betty Ford Kids Program had not started yet. They started that winter. So that’s when we kind of started that.
Margaret 09:57
And if I recall the group for the kids was happening, and then there was a group for you at the same time.
Heather 10:04
Right? So, the kids would do a group. And then the parents would meet out in like the foyer, I guess.
Zoe 10:09
Yeah, it’s kind of like the front room. There are couches.
Heather 10:13
There’s a couple rooms there. And so, the kids would meet in the back and the parents would meet in the front. I still tried to go to Al-Anon, but I just wasn’t making a huge connection at the Al-Anon group that I was at. I still wanted people to tell me how to make my kids not be alcoholics. And so, you don’t ask those things at Al-Anon
Margaret 10:33
You could try, but you’re not going to get the answer.
Heather 10:37
Right. And so at the Children’s Program, it was just different than Al-Anon, it was an open kind of forum. And you could talk, and question and it was both parents who were recovering addicts and supporting parents. And they asked that only one parent from the family attend, just because the continuity was better. And you got to know people.
Margaret 10:58
Also alleviate some of the conflict within partnerships.
Heather: Right, right. Yes, yes.
Margaret: Very smart. Whoever created that brilliant to afford family members a place for the kids to be that was safe and supported, while getting their own help. I mean, it was a really smart move. Because for parents of young children, that’s not as easy to do.
Heather: Yeah, yeah.
Margaret: So did you continue with continuing care to Zoe?
Zoe 11:25
Yeah, we pretty much went every Wednesday up until COVID, really, since I was eight. And I’m 15 now and I was 13/14 When COVID started. So, we really went every Wednesday.
Margaret 11:42
And how did it change over those years? Because that’s a formative stage. Right? You’re going from seven and a half through 13? Like how did the program feel as you continued along it? Helpful.
Zoe 11:55
Yes. As the kids got older, they created a teen group, because it’s that same group of kids have been there since we were eight. So, they created a teen group, which kind of went further, more information, kind of not veering off, but branching off of alcoholism into depression, anxiety, things that like teens with parents who were alcoholics like experience as teens, more so than little kids.
Margaret 12:28
That’s amazing. Zoe, so you’ve been with the same core people up until and through that?
Zoe: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.
Heather 12:36
Yeah. There were some therapists that came and went, but the group really stayed very consistent.
Heather: Yeah. Back in the day, they aged out at age 12. And as the kids approach 12, we were like, well, what are we going to do? Where are we going to take them? You know? And so that group said, well, we’re really thinking about doing a teen program, is this something that you would be interested in? Yeah, absolutely.
Margaret 13:05
Amazing that the Children’s Program pivoted to accommodate a group who bonded and grown together to go to that next step. It’s remarkable. So, the obvious question I have Zoe is, how has it been since COVID started without it?
Zoe 13:19
We’ve been online through Betty Ford, and more people from different states have come into the meetings. I haven’t been going recently because it’s just school, and there’s a lot of other things going on. But I really hope we do go back in person soon.
13:37
Margaret: You miss it.
Zoe 13:39
Yeah I do miss it.
Margaret 13:40
So, if it went back in person, Once COVID gets better, or we figure out a way to do it in person, you would be there?
Zoe: Yes.
Margaret: Has the online growth been cool? Because you’ve met more kids? Or has it been kind of hard because you miss your core group?
Zoe 13:54
Both at the same time, for sure.
Margaret 13:57
I think one of the hardest parts about this is the change we’ve all had to adapt to. And I think students and teachers have adopted the most because of all the ups and downs and changes and the stressors. And the obvious increase in mental health and addiction issues. It’s been a stressful time. I have to ask Heather Have you found the magic answer to how to keep your kids from being alcoholics?
Heather 14:24
You know I haven’t. But after many years of talking about it, and many discussions, I’ve come to the conclusion that we have given them all the tools that we can give them and they’re going to have to make decisions as they grow up. Does it scare me still? Yeah, for sure. Hunter goes away to college next year. Um and it scares me a lot. But both of my kids seem to have a really good head on their shoulders. And I heard somewhere one time whether it was on a podcast or in a meeting, that old saying, really what, what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger. And that instead of looking at addiction, from a perspective of being a bad thing, and them having to live through this, that you take it from a positive perspective and say this is what they learned, and compared to their peers, what they learned through this period, and what they know going forward about alcohol about any substance, is just going to make them stronger, and make them hopefully make better decisions in their teens and adult years.
Margaret 15:44
I wanted to shout out to all my listeners today. And thank you, thank you for your support, your loyalty and your listening. Thanks to you, we are growing. And as a result of that, hopefully, more people are getting a benefit from this podcast. If you haven’t yet, please go on Apple podcast, and write a review, or on my Facebook page, embrace family recovery, LLC, your reviews and support help this grow. And the algorithms help it reach more people. So, thank you for participating and writing a review.
16:24
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Margaret 16:38
As a parent of college aged kids, I have to buckle up and be an Al-Anon more than ever. Only because my powerlessness hits me in the face more easily. They’re not under my roof. They’re not in our home. They’re exposed to things that don’t even have to do with alcohol that are scary, right? So just from one mom to another, it’s been lifesaving to have that outlet. Though I’m not dealing with active addiction in my face or right now going on. I’m really grateful for the resources and the tools that programs taught me to help me navigate my fears, my worries.
How is it as a teenager today, Zoe with peer pressure, and I know your mom sitting right next to you, but you seem to have a very open relationship. So how much pressure is there? At your age?
Zoe 17:29
I’d probably say that two thirds of kids vape, do drugs, not so much drugs? It’s not really a big thing in teens more vaping and drinking and whatever.
Margaret: Not marijuana?
Zoe: No, not really. It’s more vapes. Vaping is a big thing right now. And I have friends that vape but I’m just kind of like you, do you. And like, I don’t care that that’s their decision. And whatever, as long as they’re being safe. They know that they’re making that decision. I just let them do their thing. And I’m very hardcore about like, no, I’m not gonna do drugs or drink alcohol, which I mean, that might change in the future. But as of right now.
Margaret: That’s your stance today.
Zoe: Yeah. At the prime age of 15.
Margaret 18:18
Hey prime age Zoe, you are one mature, young lady. I don’t care what anyone says, for a 15 year old you have a rockstar vocabulary, a lot of insight and some wisdom that’s pretty insane. So, you’re doing great Rockstar at 15. I do wonder how your friends except you being you know, hey, you, do you but I’m not like are you able to navigate that? Has it been hard at times where people tend to respect your stance?
Zoe 18:47
No people, they very much respect it. And they know my story. Most of my friends know my story. And they respect that I’m not going to do it. So, they don’t really even ask. They just know that like, I’m chill with them doing whatever they want to do, but I just am not going to do with them. And they know that.
Margaret 19:07
You said something really fascinating to me. You said most of my friends know my story. That is unusual. Many people in this family illness keep the story secret as long as they possibly can. Have you been an open book from the get-go? Has it changed over time?
Zoe 19:25
I think in elementary school, like not a lot of people knew just like my closer friends and then towards middle school, the friends that I’ve had for a lot longer they know more. And then as I get into high school, the friends that I’ve had since freshman year they know but more of my newer friends they don’t really know. I mean, I don’t care if they ask, I’ll tell them but it’s just not really something that’s brought up as much. So, I advocate things or like if I had like conventions or videos that go out, I post it and whatever. So, a lot of people that I went to middle school with no, but my newer friends not so much because it’s, you know, newer friends. And I mean, it’s not really boring, but it’s a lot that just is like right in your face.
Margaret 20:16
So, with your peer group, and you’re being so open about it, do you have friends who have similar stories?
Zoe 20:24
I mean, of course, people from Betty Ford that I’m close with I know, obviously. And some friends, there’s like, some things going on, but not to like the magnitude of mine. Of course, there’s a lot bigger and more intense stories, but it’s hard to find someone that’s on the same level as you.
Margaret 20:45
What do you think for both of you, like I look at it, like you had your mom and your dad, and you had the disease of addiction as a teacher, as a parent, as a co-parent? That’s how I look at it. So, you had your parents teaching you things and you had the disease teaching you things? Is there anything you can pinpoint that the disease taught you having lived with it in your family?
Zoe 21:08
I think it’s definitely, like I said before, that the disease is like, something the person has that is making those decisions, and the thing that’s driving them is that disease. And I think that was that was kind of the one thing that you have to learn first before you can learn anything else. Because once you realize that, then everything makes sense more and like is actually like, oh, okay, you have to learn that first. Like, that’s the first thing you have to come to terms with.
Margaret 21:45
So that’s very much the approach you took to heal from it, and helping you understand that, before you had that education. Like, I’ll use some terms you tell me if any you identify with. So what I hear from children is more vigilant, more aware,keep secrets walk on eggshells have anger and resentment, blame the parent that’s not using, you know, like, there’s all these strategies of survival that the disease I believe teaches us. So, I’m curious if you identify with any of those for you?
Zoe 22:21
I mean, I’m definitely more aware of addiction. And like, if someone’s like, it sounds really stupid. But if someone’s like, been vaping, or they’re high, or they’re drunk, I can, I can tell those things a lot more easier than other people can.
Margaret 22:44
That’s not stupid Zoe, that’s you, having been taught to be aware, or vigilant. The awareness is great when it becomes obsessive and vigilant it gets in our way. But the fact that you have that awareness, my hope is that leads to your gut saying, whoa, whoa, something’s off. And then you take care of yourself.
Zoe 23:01
Yeah. So like, if I like notice, and I mean, it’s rare right now. But as I get into college, if people are high, or the smell of marijuana, which is very specific, and if people are drunk, I kind of just like, okay, whatever. And just kind of like distance myself, but I’m a lot more aware than other people notice things that other people wouldn’t.
Margaret: Thank you. And you, Heather.
Heather 23:26
I mean, I think I identify with all those things. I’ve walked on eggshells for many years. I was never a secret keeper. I have always been very open about it. I remember specifically, one time about four and a half years ago, we went up with my sister’s family and some of their friends to the mountains. And they had a condo up there for the winter that they were going to be at every weekend. And they were carrying in cases of alcohol. And Hunter ran upstairs, and you know, it dawned on me wasn’t around. And I went up there and said, what’s, what’s going on? And he said, I can’t be down there. And I said, why not? And then he said, because there’s addiction in this house. And I was like, Oh my God.
And I went down there and I kind of told the group. I was like, what am I supposed to do? And I think it was eye opening for them to be like, oh my god, this is what they see. You know, and so we had to explain to him not everybody that drinks is an alcoholic. This is alcohol for a number of months. It’s not all going to be drink at one time. So that I think that was eye opening for me and I have never been a big drinker. I just I don’t like it. But I became hyper aware of even when I was drinking around my kids to say to them a one glass of wine doesn’t mean I’m going to be an alcoholic and I don’t know that you’ve ever worried that I would be an alcoholic?
Zoe 24:56
I remember that definitely being littler like after my dad came back, me and my brother were both kind of like tiptoeing about if there was alcohol around, we were kind of like in we’d give him a look. And then after that, I think they realized, so like, every time before we are going somewhere, they’d have to over and over explain if there’s alcohol, people drinking whatever, it doesn’t mean they’re alcoholics, it’s for fun and one glass doesn’t mean this and that you’re going to be okay. And that it’s, it’s for fun. And that this doesn’t mean you’re an alcoholic a like it’s, you know, just like overexplaining repetition of that, like, one sip of alcohol, one drink of alcohol, one glass of alcohol doesn’t mean you’re an alcoholic, but to be aware of what an alcoholic is sort of thing.
Margaret 25:45
So, do you think after he came home, you were kind of more heightened in your awareness of looking for alcohol?
Zoe 25:53
I think, yes. That like alcohol was definitely scary, I guess, until I was 11, or 12. I like alcohol still is kind of like if there’s drunk people and can like, eww.
Margaret 26:08
it’s a turn off for me to let me just say that. You know, it’s funny, we, we tend to have different personality traits that we navigate life with. And some of us are control freaks. And some of us are able to just kind of go with the flow. And some of us are fearless and think it’s never gonna happen to us, you know. So, it’s interesting to see within the family. The differences between the individuals in the family and the way they perceive everything, right, like we’re all in the same home, but yet we experience it differently. And I’m guessing that’s true, between you and your brother?
Zoe: Yes, I think so.
Margaret: And yet, that memory, he was fearful of what this would lead to,
Heather: Yes.
Margaret: Protective of dad, was Dad at that trip?
Heather: He was not on that trip.
Margaret: So, it wasn’t about Dad. At that point. It was just the awareness of the bottle being the lead to that behavior.
Heather: Yes. And I think his aunt and uncle were there. Maybe fear for them or maybe just fear of seeing and again, you know, seeing people be drunk.
Margaret 27:23
Empowerment means the process of becoming stronger and more confident, especially in controlling one’s life. Hearing Zoe’s confidence in her education and the permission for her to set boundaries and speak her truth is truly inspiring, and it fills me with hope. I believe this episode demonstrates the need and benefits to keeping communication open with your children as they change and grow.
When we return. Next week, we will talk more about healing and how observant children are, remembering that they observe things and then they mentally try to figure them out for themselves. Education is vital to empowerment and having the ability to separate the disease from the person and to not take responsibility for someone else’s illness.
Outro:
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website, embracefamilyrecovery.com resources page.
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you!
