I am so excited to introduce you to Heather and Zoe. Since I had the extraordinary opportunity to participate in the Hazelden Betty Ford Children’s Program in October 2017, I have dreamed about giving voice to a program graduate.
Today is that day!! Zoe, her brother, and her parents participated in the program when Zoe was 7 1/2 years old.
Today begins a three-part conversation with Heather and Zoe sharing the multi-generational disease of addiction in their family. I find it fascinating to hear how different the experience and perception of the disease can be for each family member, and all are valid.
Please share this podcast with anyone with children and grandchildren who could benefit. I know there are fears about sharing, exposing, and teaching our children. I believe hearing from Zoe and Heather can help lessen the concern.
Education and validation of what children intuitively experience are empowering for them.
00:01
You’re listening to The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now, here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Margaret 00:28
Welcome back, today, I am absolutely thrilled to introduce you to Heather and her daughter, Zoe. I am so inspired by Heather’s willingness to educate and empower her children, through exposing them to education, and information around this family disease of addiction. This is a generational family disease, as you will hear in their story. But doesn’t recovery also travel through the generations? Join me in listening to this incredible young woman Zoe, and her fantastic Mom, who’s doing different for her daughter than was done for her. Let’s meet Heather and Zoey.
01:14
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
Margaret 01:30
I am thrilled that I have with me today in the closet. I have Zoey and Heather, who are with me today to share their story of their recovery journey. And I’m not even going to share anything about what I know about you because I want you to tell the audience about yourselves. So, what I always ask people when they come on is who brought you to recovery? What relationship in your life brought you to seek your own recovery?
Heather 01:57
That would be my mom.
Margaret 01:59
Okay, so Heather, you’re the mom in the scenario. And Zoe you’re the daughter. So, the generational condition here this disease is commonly generational. So Heather, when you were growing up, you lived with someone who had the disease of addiction.
Heather 02:15
Yes, my dad is an alcoholic. He has been sober for about five years, but was an active alcoholic for probably about 30 years.
Margaret 02:25
Okay, so I’m going to ask both of you this, because I also know a little bit about the story. But let’s start with you, Heather, what age did you first have an inkling something was wrong or feel something was going on in the home even if you didn’t know for sure what it was?
Heather 02:38
It wasn’t until I was in high school that I realized it and then it became very prevalent when I was in college and post college.
Margaret 02:46
Interesting. So were you commuting to college or away at college?
Heather 02:50
I was away at college; I was about six hours away. But the very first time he came up to visit me he came up with one of his law partners, and we went out to dinner. And I remember fighting with him in the parking lot over his partner needing to be the one that drove them back to the hotel. And I think that was kind of the first fight that we had, you know, you drink too much, you need to stop. And I don’t even think I even realized it was alcoholism, just that he drank too much. There was never like a label to it.
Margaret 03:24
Sure. And that’ll be interesting in this conversation because I know already from chatting with you before, that you’ve really worked conscientiously to educate your children about this disease. And so, it will be interesting to see the differences between the two of you and generationally, what you were exposed to what you knew, what you understood versus what Zoey knows and understands. You know, I think that’s a fascinating piece of this. So, let’s not keep Zoey too quiet here. So, Zoey, first tell our audience how old you are. I didn’t ask your mom because you’re not supposed to ask a lady, but I think for the sake of this conversation, Zoey, I think we need to know how old you are, if you don’t mind.
Zoe 03:58
I am 15 years old.
Margaret 04:01
So everybody who knows me personally knows I get really jazzed up when I have a younger person involved in this process, because I’m just so excited that people are being empowered and educated, to understand what they live with, and have lived with. So same question for you, Zoe, who was the person in your life who has this disease?
Zoe 04:19
My dad was an alcoholic. And in recovery, yes, for almost eight years now.
Margaret 04:27
Wonderful. And so same question. As I asked her mom, at what age did you kind of have an inkling something was off in the home? And did you know what it was?
Zoe 04:37
I don’t really have a distinct age. I just remember being little and like at dinner, every time, every night he would be home later. I’d be like he’s drunk. And my brother would be like, no, he’s not and like, of course you’d come home, and I’d be like he’s walking weird. And I knew that was like he was out. I don’t know what he was doing or what drunk men, but it just meant, like I knew is not great.
Margaret 05:03
So, I’m curious, you knew that word. And you knew that it had something to do with alcohol or not?,
Zoe 05:10
Not alcohol, just that he was out doing something at a bar, I knew what a bar was, and that he would come home, and he’d be weird in that’s what I knew as like, drunk.
Margaret 05:22
So not There’s typical behavior, something was off.
Zoe: Yes, something was off.
Margaret: Okay. And so that would put you around seven when he got sober?
Zoe: Um eight / seven.
Margaret: So Heather, when you look back on your own story in your family of origin? And what you came to understand, did you have an inkling around your husband being an alcoholic?
Heather 05:47
Nope. It’s almost laughable now (laughter) that I didn’t pick up on it. And it was kind of typical slow progression. When we first got together, he drank on the weekends. I was never a big drinker. And I was like, well, I guess this is what people do in their late 20s. They drink on the weekends. And we got married. And then within a year of being married, we had Hunter, who is almost 18 now. And I remember him coming home from work, and there were times that he was definitely drunk. And I was like, you can’t hold the baby, you’ve been drinking. Still didn’t dawn on me that he was an alcoholic, but I wouldn’t let him hold the baby if he had been drinking. It wasn’t until, and I distinctly remember the day and the time it was an evening, I was about two months away from having Zoe. And Jeremy came home drunk, and we had a fight. And he threw his keys across the room. And I picked up Hunter and went and locked ourselves in the bathroom and realized I was married to an alcoholic. And that was the first time it really dawned on me that I had just married my dad, and how for three and a half, four years, I hadn’t realized that I was with an alcoholic.
Margaret 07:02
So, I want to touch on that. Because I think we are so hard on ourselves. I know what brought me into recovery was being engaged to someone who I had no idea. But when I found out the truth, it was like puzzle pieces just flew into focus. It was the weirdest sensation I’ve ever experienced in my life. It was like suddenly everything made sense that I had not wanted to see or been able to see. And I think it’s important to give ourselves grace to know that there’s two factors here, there’s our loving someone, and not wanting to see the truth, because we do love them. And we want to see the best in people, which is very human. The other component is your partner will keep it from you the most because they know you’re going to do something about it if you figure it out. And that’s the nature of the disease.
So, you have these two things going against each other to keep you from seeing the truth. You know, when you say I should have known, it’s almost laughable, I disagree. I think that it’s an unbelievable pattern we see in this illness model where people marry someone who has it, or struggle with it themselves as generationally it goes down the path. And I don’t think any of us advertise for it.
Heather: Right.
Margaret: But I do think when you grow up in a home where the disease has been a teacher, a family member, you learn strategies to survive, and that really well. So, it seems there’s this almost unconscious connection with people who have issues that comes along. And I hope you don’t beat yourself up for that or take it too hard. Because I do think it’s a very natural progression of the illness on the family side.
Heather 08:36
One meeting and I remember going to a family week meeting at a recovery center, and then saying the percentage was high, like 83% chance that you will continually seek out addictive people to be in a relationship with. And I was like, Oh my god.
Margaret 08:56
So, the how that’s manifested in my work is the number of people I’ve seen who’ve come for help with a relationship. They go after their family exposure; they say they’re going to work their program and do what they can to help themselves with all the tools that are given. And then they come back in about five years with a new partner with the same illness. And there is no way they put on match.com only addicts need apply, right? Like that didn’t happen. It’s just conditioning of the illness that affects everybody in the family, whether we have it or we love someone with it. And so, to you Zoe one of the gifts your mother has afforded you, and your father is to get help early to understand that with which you live. And the tendencies of this genetic disease, which I’m sure is very different Heather than you were ever exposed to.
Heather 09:46
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I didn’t understand the genetics of it again until a different family week program. You know, my mom’s dad was an alcoholic. My mom married my dad who’s an alcoholic. My husband’s father I was an alcoholic, my husband’s grandfather was an alcoholic.
Margaret 10:03
It’s amazing, amazing the patterns if you pull the tree together and look at how it filters through, when you hear this, Zoe, and when you were exposed to this, is this something you consider and think about in your life right now? Or is it not something you’re worried about yet?
Zoe 10:18
I mean, not really, right now. More so, as we’re getting older, of course, people are more into like drinking and experimenting or whatever. But like, it doesn’t really affect me, because I’m kind of like you do you and I’ll just chill here and be me.
Margaret 10:35
Yeah. So once it came to the light, that were husband had the illness. What did you do? You got to that bathroom and hit you like a ton of bricks? What did you do? Did you get help for yourself?
Heather 10:51
No, it took me seven years.
Margaret 10:53
Seven years, I asked that intentionally, again, not as judgment. But just as a reality check that that is very pattern typical, that we as family members keep going because we have to keep it together, but don’t get help for ourselves. It’s like we shut ourselves down and hyper focus on them, and the children to try and keep everything going. Is that how it happened?
Heather 11:15
Absolutely. I mean, I would I started calling him on it. And then that was where it was like, well, that wasn’t my truck at the bar. And the bar was just, you know, kind of across the street. That wasn’t my truck, but it was your license plate? No, it was this guy. I mean, and the stories that you go back and be like I believed you, you know, and they always say, at the end, you’re crazier than the alcoholic.
Margaret 11:39
You feel that was the case?
Heather: Absolutely.
Margaret: We’re so hard on ourselves and each other in this illness. So, we get really angry, understandably, with the damage that causes but in separating the illness from the person, we can be afforded the ability to care for them, and set boundaries against the disease and care for ourselves realizing it affected us as well.
So, as you look at the progression, and so we think about this for you, too, okay. As you look at the progression, Heather, with him getting more ill, and you getting more ill. Do you recognize in hindsight how you got more ill in what ways it affected you?
Heather 12:17
Oh, absolutely. I was angry all the time. I was resentful all the time. I wanted him to just go away, so I didn’t have to deal with it, because I didn’t know how to deal with it. I’m a huge conflict avoider. I learned that from my mom, who learned it from her mom. And I hated anything that dealt with conflict. And so, I just tried to keep it smooth and even and, you know, keep going and let him do his thing. And just day to day.
Margaret 12:52
I wanted to shout out to all my listeners today. And thank you. Thank you for your support, your loyalty and you’re listening. Thanks to you, we are growing. And as a result of that, hopefully more people are getting a benefit from this podcast. If you haven’t yet, please go on Apple podcast, and write a review, or on my Facebook page, embrace family recovery, LLC. Your reviews and support help this grow. And the algorithms help it reach more people. So, thank you for participating and writing a review.
13:32
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Margaret 13:45
And I think a lot of us experience this, when we are living it, it’s harder to put it into words. But then when we reflect back and have someone to talk to openly about it, then we can notice what we didn’t necessarily notice at the time, but that’d be fair.
Heather: Yes.
Margaret: And so, one of the things you shared, Heather was as it progressed, your responsibility was to keep the children safe. And one of the things I hear a lot from family members who are in the process of this life and haven’t figured out that they deserve help as much as the person with the illness. How did you strategize? Because that’s a tough one, right? You have a partner who you want to be partner, but they’re unreliable because of their disease. So how did you take care of the safety aspects? Was that part of the deal breaker that got treatment to happen?
Heather 14:32
You know, I think I never let him have any control with the kids. I took them to daycare. I pick them up from daycare, I made the doctor’s appointments, I did all the parenting. I made all the decisions. I went to all the parent teacher conferences. I was a single parent. And I think I had probably always been a single parent looking back on it even from the time Hunter was a baby. And so, I didn’t know how to do it. Any difference? It was what I did, I was the single parent, I made the decisions. I didn’t consult with him on anything.
Margaret: Thus, the resentment.
Heather: Yes. When he would come home and want to go check on the kids, when he came home, I would know they’re asleep, you can’t go in there, do not wake them up. Because he would, he would come in and wake him up and get them all riled up. And because he was fun dad when he was drunk, if he was not drunk enough to be falling down, he was really fun. And that’s when he would wrestle and play. And it’s nine o’clock at night, and I’ve got little kids who have to get up the next day. So, I did not let them be picked up by him after work, which he usually wasn’t off. I distinctly remember them being in an after-school program, and I’m a teacher. So, we had parent teacher conferences. And he had to pick them up because I couldn’t leave to go pick them up from daycare. And he picked them up. And he was under the influence. And the daycare provider called me and said, I just want you to know, I let them go, because I know it was just around the corner, that he was taking them. But if he shows up again, having been drinking, I will call social services. And I was like, oh, my God, I can never let him pick them up from you know, and that was like, one time in five years that he had picked them up from daycare.
Margaret 16:28
And did that conversation happened between you and your husband after that conversation with the daycare?
Heather 16:32
It did. And of course he, I wasn’t drunk, I hadn’t been drinking. She was crazy.
Margaret 16:38
Isn’t it amazing how the disease of addiction turns it away from the person and turns it on everyone around the person. It’s so cunning that way, right? What led to your husband getting help? Finally, like how did that come to happen?
Heather 16:54
So, I filed for divorce, I finally realized I could not do this anymore. It is definitely not what I wanted to do, because then conflict was involved. And so, I filed for divorce in April, April of 2012/ 2013.
Margaret: That would be about eight years ago.
Heather: Yeah. Let him know that I was filing and that he was going to need to be gone by May 1 and May 1 came and went. And of course, I was like, okay, you gotta go. And he was like, well, I’m not leaving. I was like, okay, you know, (laughter) conflict avoider. So, I’m trying to figure out how I’m going to move the kids out of the house, and what am I going to do? Are we going to take them, and he at the time, maybe a year before he quit his job doing construction and was working for his cousin and started making some mistakes on the job. And his cousin had known about this. And I had been talking to him. He had a friend in the Colorado Springs area, who was in recovery, and owned some sober houses down there. And so, the cousin told my husband, you go spend three months at this sober house, and you work the program with this guy. And I’ll let you have your job back. And so, he thought about it for a weekend said he wasn’t going to go. And then on Memorial Day weekend, he decided to go. And so, he left and went down to the springs. I had called all the rehab facilities in the area. And none of them took our insurance. I mean, it was at that time $35,000 out of pocket. There was no way. And so, this was kind of the only option. I mean, the sober house was affordable, and within driving distance, so he went, and he ended up spending seven months there.
Margaret 18:59
Big change. And then at what point, Heather, did you get help?
Heather 19:04
So, my dad went through a rehab facility the year before. And we went through the family week at that facility. My mom, my sister and I, and then my mom had gotten very involved in Al Anon, maybe a year or two before that. And different treatment facility in Denver offered her to do the family week because the woman who ran family week also was the facilitator for their Al-Anon program. So she had me go through the family week, about a year after she went through that. Like I knew my mom was an Al-Anon, but I didn’t really understand it, and I didn’t understand the disease and I didn’t understand, you know, a lot of it and I mean, that was probably one of the best things I’ve ever done to start to understand that, and that may have been the winter that I filed for divorce. And, you know, met a lot of people there and was finally like, I don’t have to live like this anymore. So that was kind of the first time that I started to get help. I didn’t start going to Al-Anon meetings until much later because I didn’t have anybody to watch the kids.
Margaret 20:15
Yeah, basic fundamentals of life when living with someone or being single, because he was not at home and at the sober house would be how to manage little children and work and the responsibilities while trying to get help for yourself. I mean, one of the blessings of COVID is meetings online have become far more prevalent, which allows people who are in that situation to get access, which I think is such a great thing.
Heather: I do. Yeah.
Margaret: So, Zoe, do you remember when dad went to the sober house?
Zoe 20:46
Yes. I remember having a conversation in my parent’s room someday, on the weekend or before after school that he was leaving. And that they told us that she was filing for divorce. Of course, I didn’t know what that meant. But I knew like he was leaving. But then they said that he was going to treatment, and like, what treatment was and what it was for, and where he was going. And I remember that. And that’s really all I remember. That was a long time.
Margaret 21:23
Do you remember when you heard dad’s go into treatment, what you thought that meant?
Zoe 21:28
They said he was going to a house. So, I remember thinking of like, oh, a summer camp sort of thing. And he’s going to this place or whatever. And he’s not allowed to have alcohol. And that’s all I remember is that, like, he’s not allowed to have alcohol. So that’ll make them better. But I didn’t, of course, all the treatment and therapies and stuff behind it.
Margaret 21:47
Didn’t know all of that. Sure. That’s really interesting to hear. Because I have parents who’ve often said, what do I tell my children? Right? And, and one of the things I encourage is to not make treatment sound like a hospital because I mean, on top of just fears of people being in hospital and illnesses and bad things happening. You’ve got COVID, where so many people have lost their lives. For children. It’s a scary proposition. And then if they go to visit, and they don’t see white coats and nurses and the things they would expect in a hospital if they’ve ever been in one, you know, so it’s fabulous that you shared that it was a house and that it was somewhere he would not be drinking and he will be working on probably said things along the lines of working on being a healthier dad.
Zoe 22:27
Yeah.
Margaret 22:30
So how long before you got to go through the children’s program Zoe? Because that’s how we met. I’m, you’re an alumni. So how did how did that come to happen? What age were you when you went to the children’s program?
Zoe 22:42
I think I was eight.
Heather 22:46
Well here’s a little backstory on that. So, the long family we program that I went through, talked about the children’s program, I did not understand that it was not a paid program for kids at that time. So, when she was six, long before Jeremy went to treatment, the children’s program was going into schools, into low-income schools and doing a two- or three-day program in the schools. I work in a low-income school where the program was coming into and it was the first year they were coming into that school. I talked with my principal, not understanding any of this and said, Can I bring my kids to this program? Can I have two of the spots? And she said, absolutely. And so, they came in at the ages of six and eight and did the program. It didn’t go well. We are a very high needs school with a lot of kids with a lot of trauma. And they had the most traumatized kids in the program. And there was a lot of behavior. It was a difficult situation. And at that time, it was Kathleen and Jerry, who ran the program. And they came to me and said, you know, we really think that they need to go through the four-day program. They’re not getting out of this what they need to get out of this. And I said, still not understanding that this was not a paid program. I said, okay, I’ll see what I can do. So, the next year, in the spring, I called out right after Jeremy had gone to the sober house, I called and talked to Kim down at the Betty Ford children’s program and said, Are there scholarships? What can I do to get them in? I can’t afford to send them there. And that’s when she said this is not a paid program. This is free. If you can provide a donation that would be great. And I was like, Oh my god. Okay, well, we want in, by June of that year, the summer program was full. And so, they got in, in September of that year after he gone to rehab, and did the four day program in mid-September of that year.
Margaret 25:05
So, hold on, I mean, what an amazing role model you are for your child and your children. Not only are you working to set boundaries, you’re prioritizing their safety in a very difficult set of circumstances, you’re supporting your husband getting help whatever way necessary. And then you expose your children to a children’s program, which is daunting for many parents. They’re fearful of doing that. And not only exposing them, but getting the feedback, they need something more or different. You then advocate for resources for help, right? Like, not letting barriers stop you from getting the help they need. And you needed at the time is remarkable, because there’s a lot of proud people out there who avoid ever saying, hey, I would love to do this, but I don’t have the means. Can you help me?
Zoe: Good Job, Mama!
Heather: Thanks.
Margaret: What a great role model you are for your kids that they can always ask for help and go beyond what feels comfortable to ask for help. It’s remarkable.
Heather 26:03
Thank you. I never thought of it that way.
Margaret 26:04
Well, it’s true. We role model out loud in our actions a lot to our children. And if I can teach my, I’m getting emotional. If I can teach my kids anything, it’s that it’s okay to ask for help. It’s okay to not have all the answers. It’s okay to put yourself at risk in a way of vulnerability of actually admitting I don’t have what I need, and I need help. So great job in role modeling that to your children.
Heather: Thank you.
Margaret: Zoe goes through children’s program with your brother. You both went?
Zoe 26:38
Yes, we both went, I was almost eight. I turned eight in November of that year, and we went in September Hunter was 9 or 10. And we went through the four-day program. And then we went through another program and then we started continuing/care aftercare.
Heather 27:01
So, she’s talking about the stage twos that they do and would do every few months.
Margaret: Yes. Great. So, we’re gonna kind of peek behind the curtain, Zoe!
Outro: 27:07
So yeah, I know. I left it on a cliffhanger just as we were hearing Zoe’s story. Come back next week, and you’ll get a chance to hear from this courageous, articulate young woman. She’ll share her experience of the children’s program. And we’ll talk further about family addiction, and family recovery. Check out my show notes for a link to the Hazelden Betty Ford Children’s Program on
https://www.hazeldenbettyford.org/treatment/family-children/childrens-program
https://embracefamilyrecovery.com/resources/
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability in sharing parts of their story.
Please find resources on my website.
https://embracefamilyrecovery.com/resources/
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you!
