In today’s episode, William Cope Moyers, the author of Broken, shares further about his ongoing recovery journey and the power of community in that recovery.
William and I talk about how a connection with our fellows is vital in all recovery programs. And we also explore triggers for family members and strategies William uses to communicate and stay out of being a Higher Power for anyone.
See full transcript below.
00:00
You’re listening to the Embrace family recovery podcast, a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now, here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Margaret 00:26
Welcome back, William does a deep dive in this episode, to the journey of recovery, and the power of community in that recovery. The ‘We’ is so vital. And we also look at triggers for family members’ recovery. Let’s get back to William.
00:49
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
William: 01:00
I mean, addiction is an illness of isolation in isolation. And the antidote to it is community. I mean, that’s why the first word of the first step of the 12 steps is so powerful we, but even if it’s not a we program for you, if you’re recovering in another way, whether it’s through yoga groups, or through churches, book club, or through running club stick together, because there’s great strength in community, however you define community, and part of that strength is in learning from other people, what they have, had to go through or how they have mastered that. Letting go while still loving, you know, staying connected while setting boundaries. Because nobody can do it by themselves very well. And nobody does it perfectly.
Margaret: 01:42
And I also think it speaks to the fact that when I’m alone in my head, that has so much power over what I do feel think experience. And if I let people in, in that running club, or in that we room or wherever it is, and shed light on the crazy in my head. Amazing how much less power it holds over me. Like if I’m worried about my kid and my brain, my monkey Chatter as I use is going oh my god, gotta call her, gotta find her, look on SNAP, where is she? Is she okay? She, okay, it gets so painful to live in that place. Versus if I pick up the phone and call someone and say, you know what, I realize I want to search for them. Because I want to feel better not because I have any reason to think they’re not okay.
William: Yeah, yeah.
Margaret: Then I can breathe, and then I can let it go. I do want to ask you this, because I find this a topic tough for family members. And as you’ve had both experiences, I think you could be helpful in this. We have very clear awareness of triggers for people with substance use disorder, that kick off the disease in the brain and create the craving thoughts, the using thoughts. Triggers are just as prevalent on the family side to kick off the fear, the worry, which leads us into fix, manage, control. Are you willing to share any triggers you’re aware of that push you, and that voice, and that fear that you then are needing to pick up your recovery tools, so you don’t act on them as a loved one?
03:11
William: Yeah, that’s, that’s an excellent, insightful question. And I wish equally excellent, insightful answer to it. It reminds me that it is progress, not perfection. You know, I gotta think about how to say this carefully. But I observe actions, I wouldn’t even say their behaviors, they’re more actions in the people that I love, that oftentimes alert me to the fact that maybe something’s going on or that things are not the way I want them to be um.
Margaret: For them.
William: Yeah, and I’ve had that recently with a family member. A close family member, as close as that family member can be. where I’ve had to have a talk with that person. And I think, I think more than anything, when I get that trigger of wariness, or suspicion, or sneaking around kind of thinking that leads to the sneaking around kind of behavior. I think the best way for me to defang it or to dilute it is to just go to that person that I’m suspicious of in terms of their actions and talk to them about it. I often time it’s that sort of levels, the playing field I’ve discovered just in the last couple of weeks, actually with a loved one that when I do that, um, it also invites a healthy conversation between two adults in a way that is as beneficial for that person as it is for me.
Again, it goes back to keeping that line of communication open. Um, so I just feel like I need to disgorge it in a responsible way, in a healthy way and to that person, so that that trigger that I have doesn’t lead me to those kinds of unhealthy behaviors any more than if I acknowledge my craving for a substance that oftentimes I discover is that it no longer controls me. If I keep it in well, it taunts me or leads me to do other things. So, I think the same is true with a loved one, it’s best to just approach that person, talk to them about it, and say, hey you know what, I’ve been thinking, I’m worried about you. That’s sort of the best phrase there is in terms of opening the door without being accusatory, which is to say, you know, loved one, I’m worried about you? Is there anything I can do to help?
Margaret 05:46
I think the more powerful piece is not just that I’m worried about you the next piece, is there anything you need from me? Can I support you in any way? Not an accusatory, it’s, I’m available. I also think what that speaks to is leading with vulnerability.
05:59
William: Yeah, that’s tricky in it.
Margaret 06:01
Yeah. It’s one of the things I least like to do, but yet, it’s what I want them to do. when I want them to show me or share with me, right. So hello, let’s get less hypocritical and do the same work. And my thing is, hey, I’m triggered. My squirrelly brain is going nuts. And I feel like a lunatic. And I’m not going to accuse you of anything, just want to check in and see how you are.
06:21
William: Yep. And because what, because oftentimes, that inviting without it being accusatory opens the door and doesn’t push away, that person standing on the other side of it. Whereas if you come at them with, I think you are, pointing your finger at them or raising your voice, it doesn’t do any good. That experience I’ve had recently has led to some important conversations which haven’t resolved my concern, but which have eased the pressure point. Toward getting to some resolution.
Margaret 06:57
That’s wonderful. And it takes a risk, right, it takes a huge risk is I think the person on the other side thinks family doesn’t feel any sense of fear or a risk in approaching them in any way. But that is a very daunting thing to do. Because the fear is, and the monkey’s story is, well, if I say or do the wrong thing, it’s all going to go south.
07:16
William: That’s why Margaret, it’s so important, I have learned, to be authentic in my own recovery. And that means not wearing an S on my chest for Super but means wearing a V on my chest for Vulnerable or an H on my chest for Human. Because if the people that I love and want to be well can see that their father or their spouse or their colleague is still a flawed, vulnerable, imperfect human being them, we’re all the same. Yeah.
And that’s why I’ve often cautioned people, particularly my own family members. Some people say, gosh, William I want to be just like you, I want to work in this field, and help people I say be careful what to ask for. (laughter) You don’t know half of who I am, and until you know who I am.
Margaret: Right
William: And a half, you see, it’s not necessarily, is not that the whole. And I’ve said that to my own children. You know, my daughter is getting her, she’s at Columbia in New York, getting her master’s in social work. And um originally, she went because she was inspired by me, well I’m glad she was inspired, but she also knows all of my flaws. And I’ve got them, believe me, and I’ve got my flaws in recovery, which are in some ways are more painful than when I had my flaws under the influence because when I was under the influence, I didn’t know them right, you know, I was denying them. Whereas today, I’m pretty open about it. I had to, I had to tell my children something years ago, during very, very difficult times when I was going down as a sober person to hit bottom again, I had to tell my children something that was as hard as a parent can imagine. And I did it at our little lake place up in Wisconsin, where we have a cabin, we’ve always had, it’s been a special place for us. Long story short, I had to admit to my children something about me that well, was hard to do. But looking back on it now, I was proud to do it because it gave them permission to be imperfect to. Not that I want them to follow in my footsteps that way, but it was important. See, I never had that growing up my parents, I always saw them as being super, super-duper. And they were super-duper in a lot of us and they were still parents. He was still human. They were still flawed. We just didn’t talk about it, like I’ve talked about it with our kids.
Margaret 09:35
And it gives them permission to talk about their own humaneness and that is a gift.
09:40
William: And to be that way. Yeah, and to be flawed and make mistakes, we all make mistakes. I’ve made more mistakes since Broken came out, than before it came out. And that’s part of why I want to write about it because this journey that we’re on where we started this conversation an hour ago was around, you know, the book. And the book was good, but the book and it does have a happy ending. But then there’s the rest of the story and stuff happens. And it’s that stuff that happens, through codependency, through substances through life on life’s terms that make life so rich, and so worth talking about.
Margaret 10:16
So, triggers, family triggers. You bet. They can derail us so fast and instantly kick off our monkey chatter. If you don’t know anything about monkey chatter, check out my podcast, Episode 15, which is a deep dive into monkey chatter. You can find it on my website, or on any podcast streaming channel. If you are acutely aware of your monkey chatter, and finding that it’s giving you a hard time. Head to my website, and go to my Work With Margaret Page. Sign up for a complimentary discovery call with me. I am here to support and co-create healthier tools to manage your monkey chatter with you.
11:09
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Margaret 11:20
Speaking from what I gained from Broken and being able to refer it as a resource for so many, there is a hunger for the next chapter, we would value that from just our conversation today, William and your willingness to share vulnerably here. It would give people permission to continue to evolve in their recovery, and not have to have that perfect fairytale ending be the ending, but recognize that life on life’s terms, it’s messy, but manageable. If we have care.
11:54
William: And worth it, and worth it, you know. And that’s why I’ve got to get the book done, I actually think it can be as important if not more so. It can be as important as Broken was, I just have to be respectful of the other people who are part of the story.
Margaret: Of course!
William: Because it is a flawed story. It is a story of other people as much as it’s a story about me, in the same way that my parents were so formative in Broken because of their own letters. And so, I still had to be respectful of them. And I need to do the same with people in my life today.
But that’s why, when you invited me to be on your podcast, I jumped right at the opportunity. Not only because it’s an important podcast, but because it allows me to, to further articulate the story that I still need to tell. And so, one of the great benefits of sharing with you today and being with you, Margaret is that it’s sort of fired me up
Margaret: Good
William: and get this book done.
Margaret 12:51
Good. I’m glad because I think, you know, my passion point is for anyone impacted by this illness, but especially family. And so, anything that can come out that can offer family self forgiveness, a chance to know they’re not alone, a chance to know that if William can struggle in recovery with his experiences, and his knowledge base and his just his history, then why couldn’t I? And that isn’t it okay to go deeper, find a therapist get to a meeting. Do something a little bit more for me.
13:32
William: Yeah, amen.
Margaret 13:35
Well, I am so thankful I really am. It’s pleasure. I mean, I’ve peripherally known you now for many, many years, I’ve admired your work, and I’ve appreciated so much about you and your passion for helping and doing so much service for so many. But to get a chance to hear you share your story is quite a privilege. So, I thank you and I know my audience is going to be very grateful to hear what you shared. And get that book done. William, get it done.
14:02
William: I will, and thank you for giving me the opportunity. And you know, and I’ve admired you mostly from afar, because we haven’t had a chance to be together a lot. But I know the good work that you’ve got done and I’m I’m glad that you’re still doing it. And I’m glad you’re doing it through this vehicle because I’ve learned that when we give it away, we get it back. And I know there are people who will hear this and find that hope or that reason to pick up the phone or reach out through the internet to get that help. That’s the key there is hope, and help is possible no matter where you are in your journey. So
Margaret 14:35
I’m going to ask for a favor.
William: Yeah,
Margaret: When you release that book, you better be coming back.
14:40
William: I promise you I will come to you first or second.
Margaret 14:44
Oh please. If ABC calls you go to them first but come, see me second or third.
14:49
William: I’m keeping a tally of all the people who’ve stuck with me over all these years and given me opportunities like you given me today and I’m gonna pay it back. Believe me?
Margaret 14:57
I do believe you!
I want to encourage you to purchase Broken by William Cope Moyers. It offers powerful insight to how this no-fault family disease does not discriminate.
William, we eagerly await your next book and all it will offer us with our ongoing recoveries.
Outro: I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website, embracefamilyrecovery.com
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you!
