This question is a common one with people who love someone with the disease of addiction.
Dianne shares her answer as a person whose family has been impacted by this multi-generational disease.
We take a deep dive into spirituality, healing and loss, ceremonies, the power and pain of acceptance, and boundaries.
Yes, we cover a lot of ground!
Dianne is such a resilient, generous woman who willingly shares her story and interweaves her Native American culture in a way that is so informative.
I hope you enjoy Dianne’s closing as much as I did!!!
See full transcript of episode below.
This is the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast. A place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host Margaret Swift Thompson.
Intro: Welcome back everybody! This is sadly the last of the series of interviews with Dianne. Today Dianne talks about how we can get better whether or not our loved ones do. We talk about sponsorship and end with boundaries. Let’s get back to Dianne.
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
Margaret: Did you ever feel the struggle of Mike’s use and journey until recovery risked your recovery?
Dianne: I don’t think so because I because I have incredible sponsors. I mean they both of those women keep me so grounded in whatever side of the street, whatever side of the table I’m sitting on. My AA sponsor’s constant contact. This is how she sponsors women and if you want her to sponsor then this is the way that we move through that.
My Al-Anon sponsor is not quite as hands on as my AA sponsor is, but both of them are very involved even when I was here for grad school and even here, I have to call my sponsor every morning and my Al-Anon sponsor we see each other every time that I go home. We are able to meet for coffee and just continue to work through because there’s no cure for this. It’s gotta be constant work. It’s not that I haven’t had periods of complacency, sweet Lord I certainly have, where I just think, eh I don’t need to. And then when I take a look at the effort and struggle, it’s always during those periods where, I think I got this.
Margaret: That’s very true in my experience also. When I am crispy, as I like to call it. (laughter)It’s evident that something is missing in my recovery tool kit. I’m not doing certain things that make me feel serene and more peaceful.
When you, when you think about your own childhood, cause you’re pretty forthright in sharing that you had a real struggle with your mom. And you describe the experience of a child, you know, the anger, the hurt, the empty promises, the broken promises the, ’cause I don’t know that they were ever empty, I don’t know what your thoughts are on that Dianne and I believe your mom when she made those promises really wanted to do those things with you.
Dianne: Absolutely.
Margaret: And then sabotage them took her away. But when we’re in it, it feels deeply personal. Like if I if I mattered, if you really loved me you would follow through that wouldn’t be strong enough to keep you from me. How do you come to terms with that when you grow up under that?
Dianne: So, my mom and I did healing work to repair our relationship and it was, and it was mostly during my pregnancy when I thought like I had all of this time, you know, you weren’t there when I needed a mom I don’t need you now. And it was my mom that reached out, and she had she got sober in 1970, so this would have been eight years later. She reached out and just said can we work on this? And it was kind of at that point that I was, I don’t know if it was just that yeah, I’m tired of fighting. My other sibs had really repaired their relationships with her, and I was the only one that was like hanging out in the in the back and just being very cold. And so, her getting very involved in my pregnancy really was kind of that healing link that my son was that healing link between my mom and I, and that was a bond that was so strong before he even got here. And so that was the biggest healing thing. And I remember when I went, when I started to question my drinking, didn’t stop me, but when I started to question my drinking, it wasn’t until I said the day that I went up to Wenabozho Wakaayigan and I said I can’t, I’m an alcoholic I need help. And we were having this like talking circle at her house and she got down and I was sitting on the floor, and she got down on the floor she said, now there’s something that I can do to help you.
So really that kind of started that journey of healing for us and then Mike being that link. I saw really clearly is that my mom did the best that she could. She did the best she could never it never was a matter that she didn’t love us.
And you know I’ll tell you something that I didn’t know until years and years later. My father used to bring us up to the reservation every summer, he’d get two weeks off work for vacation we spent one week on the reservation with my mom’s side of the family, and then we went to the place where he grew up and we spent the other week on a farm with the other side of his family. With six kids and that was his vacation. (laughter)
But when we were up on the reservation my mom was still active in addiction and we didn’t see her, like I didn’t we didn’t even know that she was there. We got to see our sister, our older sister and spent a lot of time with her and our grandparents lots of, tons of cousins. We would go to this little like tourist pow wow that was in the town, and it was for you know nonnative’s that had no idea what native people were about. And so, my sister, my older sister would dance in that pow wow. So, we went out there every year and I had no idea that my mom was watching us, she was there but she wasn’t going to come up to us because she had been drinking. But she said that years later is that she remembered like kind of like hiding in like one of the grandstand, kind of areas and just watching us be there with the other side of our families. Pretty, pretty incredible.
Margaret: It’s amazing the imprint the disease has right? There’s very clear patterns and experiences most of us have. There’s uniqueness in our stories, but in your story, what strikes me is you have a definite tragedy, pain, struggle with the disease, but you also have pockets of incredible recovery in your family story. I know not everyone in your family story has found recovery, but it is incredible to see the healing that’s happened for those who have.
Dianne: Yeah exactly.
Margaret: Do you think healing can happen even if your person isn’t in recovery?
Dianne: Yeah, yeah. Cause I think even you know I mean I was still pretty crazy in my early family recovery. But there it got to the point where I was like at peace with his active addiction knowing he knew there was a different way to live. He knew where to go should he choose to use it. And he knew that that door was always open. So, there was a sense of peace through throughout that.
But it’s and this has been really reinforced just in my starting to get to know some of the story of Sandra Swenson, and seeing that in just letting people know, is that we can get better whether our person does or not. We want our person to get better we never give up the hope that our person can’t get better, but we can get better whether they do or not. and I felt all of those moments when I was in recovery and even when he was out researching and just knowing you know he’s turned over to the God of my understanding.
Margaret: He knows there’s another way. You’re living that out loud. He knows there’s an open door for help ever needing it, wanting it. You’re willing. What was the third one? That he has a creator, that he has a path and it’s not yours. So, it sounds like during that time he was doing research those were the nuggets that you hung onto to help you keep going.
Dianne: You know absolutely. and something that that we haven’t talked much about is that the whole role of traditional ceremonies and our culture, and he has always been raised that way, always. I mean he went to big drum ceremonies; he was in a car seat; you know he was or is sleeping on a blanket next to us. So those seeds were planted in him and the one of them one of the first teachings that we get is that alcohol and drugs have no place in our ceremonies, they’re not a part of we don’t we have words for them now but none of those were there. With that seed planted it was a big and certainly as the big biggest part of him now because his recovery looks so different than mine and I struggled a little bit at first. Cause I thought if you don’t do it this way you’re not gonna make it and it’s not true at all. There are different paths to recovery and he found, he found the one that works for him.
Margaret: That’s huge you know we have our biases personally. I’ll speak for myself, professionally what I believe works, because of what I work in. However, there are so many different ways to achieve a quality of life, and a peace, and a recovery. What I think would be important is to go back to what you just shared and speak to it from a person who’s never even heard of the concept of ceremonies. Cause I’m sure there’s people listening who have no idea what you just referred to. So, explain that in layman’s term to someone who’s had no exposure to your culture and your community, to understand what that means.
Dianne: Everything that we do is kind of a ceremony because we are honoring the earth, who’s the mother, the moon who’s our grandmother even the hunting, and the fishing, and the sugar camps those are all spiritual activities that we do. There isn’t even a word for religion in in our language. It is an Anishinaabe way of life, it’s just kind of that that spiritual path.
Some of those ceremonies are so old that they never, they never died out they went underground because we didn’t get the right to practice our religion until 1978 was it legal to practice ceremonies. So, but they never went away they went they went way underground. Cause everything, we believe, everything has a spirit water trees, birds, rocks, like rocks we call them grandfathers because they’ve been here for a long, long time. and so, there’s always that those ways to honor them so the first time we swim if we take any berries or plants there’s always take a deer there’s always that that prayer and tobacco is kind of like the medicine for us that is the link between us and our creator. So it’s a spiritual way of life and it’s and it’s in everything that we do.
Margaret: And so, thank you for that education for people who may not know, and I don’t think I’m the only one that was clueless. So, is there any aspect of your journey, your story, your experience that you would want to share that we haven’t touched on?
Dianne: I don’t think so I know that we talked about losing both my brothers, but you know that is something and this is something that I tell people to on the substance use disorder side is never underestimate the fact that this disease doesn’t want to kill you because I buried four siblings in this disease, and there were seven of us there are three of us left. So, it’s just knowing for me that’s the reality, is that is that that’s what this disease wants to do, and it will wait a long time. And I and it’s not to throw the fear of God into anybody it’s just understand that’s what’s down that road.
Margaret: And how do you come to terms with that? As a person who was gifted through your own hard work and a spiritual journey, your own recovery, that you’ve lost four to this disease. How do you come to terms with that?
Dianne: It‘s that acceptance piece. You know and it is, it’s like I don’t have to understand it. So, kind of like my journey is that the times when I have a plan for my life and the creator has a plan for my life there’s a lot of effort and struggle. Cause there’s two different plans, and literally all it takes for me is to accept the creator’s plan as my plan and then there’s only one. And accepting that plan doesn’t mean I have to like it. It doesn’t mean I have to understand it. It does mean that I have to accept it.
Margaret: So, do you believe you can accept it without understanding it?
Dianne: Yeah
Margaret: And how do you do that because I hear that struggle a lot for people.
Dianne: I don’t know I think maybe it was just like kind of like that good foundation and footwork early on in in understanding is that is that I mean acceptance is the key we hear that all of the time in it and it is even like even all the things that happened in my childhood all the work that I did to address those issues. I’ll never understand the why, never. and I’ll never like it but I have to accept ’cause that’s, that’s my story.
Bumper: This podcast is made possible by listeners like you. Can you relate to what you’re hearing? Never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.
Margaret: I do think too what you share there is part of the part of the big piece is not staying stuck in the why. Which is where the acceptance is such a gift even though it’s a challenge is. If I’m not accepting it then I’m more than likely still going why is this happening? Why did this happen? Why me? Why them? And to get to a level acceptance there is a sense of there is no good answer to that that will add ever make it feel any better. So how do I do the next right thing to feel as good as I can about this. And to get a little pissed off at the disease every once in a while, for being a real son of a gun and hurting way too many people we love.
Dianne: You know very early on something that that I really heard loud and clear is knowing the why doesn’t change the fact that it is so, let’s focus on the way that it is.That was very helpful for me to be able to kind of let go of that piece and understanding how could these things happen to people.
Margaret: Well and I think too, I’ve had a pretty blessed life and I don’t have a comparative story to the trauma that your family history went through. And I wonder you know, and I don’t even know the answer to this I just wonder out loud, does that make it harder or easier to get to acceptance because it’s such a dark rabbit hole if you start that journey down. For you for example, for what your ancestors went through right the level of trauma and instruction at the hand of somebody else that if you go to why around addiction, you could go a heck of a long way down a path of why, that would keep you in turmoil, I would assume.
Dianne: And you know even though that the concept of knowing the why doesn’t change the fact that it is. It’s kind of like it’s a part of our our modern-day history for indigenous people. Because in spite of everything that they have done to try to exterminate us, we’re still here. And we are rebuilding that language and rebuilding that culture because that’s the focus. It’s not on what has happened but where are we going, because it’s that’s that whole 7 generation concept is that things that I do in my life make my son’s life better and the next seven generations. The things that he does good and well in his life is for his kids and the next seven generations. So, it is kind of that, you know pay it forward concept and then keeping a look at what are we leaving for those coming after us. And it’s not a legacy of you know the horror. We can’t forget that it’s in our DNA, you know they have research that shows that trauma is embedded in the DNA of indigenous people. But there’s also resiliency and also courage and that’s what many of us are focusing on is that resiliency.
Margaret: And that is my experience with you your story is absolutely about resiliency but also a big heart for your way of life, your values, your beliefs, your traditions that is beautiful and I wonder if recovery because it’s rich with traditions, slogans and tools and concepts. You know I wonder if they pair well together?
Dianne: Oh, absolutely I mean when I look, like I remember when I first got sober and I would you know go into the rooms and see all those slogans on the wall it just would irritate me, you know. And then now I mean when you think of people coming getting sober and what has happened in my community to let go and let God, to live one day at a time, to keep it simple holy crap look at the I mean it’s exactly the same.
Margaret: And I remember when Covid started hearing in a mainstream media I don’t remember where I wish I could find it’cause I remember sitting there thinking holy buckets! There was a person in mainstream media talking about I think it was a medical or mental health professional saying the only way we will survive Covid as a community is if we embrace the principles and the philosophy of people in 12 step recovery.
Dianne: I remember that I remember.
Margaret: It was mind blowing they were like a fellowship, a community, living one day at a time and letting go of the things you cannot control. And I was like, oh my gosh they’re speaking our language. (laughter)
Dianne: That’s right
Margaret: Would I have ever wanted a ticket to this club? No really, I wouldn’t. If I could have not had to go through what I went through to get to this point, I would gladly have taken that option. However, I am so grateful for all of the aspects of recovery you know and for people like yourself brought into my life who if I weren’t in this work, this recovery, I wouldn’t have the people to teach me, and share with me, and support me. You know, it’s pretty remarkable.
Dianne: Absolutely and that’s because everything that has happened up to this point has shaped me and made me who I am. And I’m pretty comfortable with knowing, I don’t tend to learn my lessons the easy way that’s OK. (laughter) But just as you said is, that with this path and with trusting that the creator has that plan for my life, look at like I said you know like you just said there’s you and there’s all of these people here that are so important to me to never would have happened
Margaret: Right, right
Dianne: Nothing happens in God’s world by mistake.
Margaret: Yes, and for anyone out there who has trouble with the word God, creator, universe, Good Orderly Direction, higher power of your understanding,
Dianne: Great Spirit.
Margaret: Great Spirit. It is so absolutely different than what I thought it was going to be walking in the rooms. And I thought for sure I couldn’t find my place ’cause I had such a strong reaction to anything that smelled of organized religion. And I was blown away at the literature and the language that was inclusive, around spirituality. And like you can totally relate to if I hear that slogan one more time, I think I’m gonna scream, to getting to a point where I written it’s like a nice feeling to recognize it and know that that’s a language I understand today. But again, that took time and work and people around me to help me appreciate the solution that the recovery world offers me.
Dianne: And it was always, it was always that hand out for me when I said I can’t do this, it was always that hand out that saved my life. So that’s why we, that’s why I do it for that newcomer coming in is because somebody did that for me.
Margaret: It is a beautiful way to be, and sadly most people don’t get the gift of seeing it, even though again we wouldn’t wish the illness on anyone to have to see it or around them, but it is quite a remarkable solution and way of life. Do you think that in that vein you have to come to a place of accepting your powerlessness over your loved ones making it or not, living or dying to surrender to recovery?
Dianne: I wanted that guarantee, I wanted that guarantee that he was going to be OK. I already lost both my brothers at that point and that taught me that there isn’t a guarantee, and for me literally that’s where faith stepped in. And hoping that those seeds that were planted from birth probably pre-birth for him, would take hold and he would see, and he would find his way.
Margaret: Yeah, and I think of the people I know who are out there living with it right now or struggling to surrender to doing the difficult work as a family member of setting those boundaries against the disease, of not tolerating intolerable behavior that you would tolerate from no other human being. Not putting the cushion under their seat. Not cleaning up the messes. Helping someone find a way to make that turn, it sounds like for you it was seeing in some moment of clarity and with the people around you to help you see it, that you couldn’t do it for him. Do you think that’s what it takes for everybody?
Dianne: It was absolutely getting out of his way, that he found his way. And if I, was you know the the planner and you know dragging him kicking and screaming, I tried all that it didn’t work. Until I just let go and told him I love you unconditionally. You ever wanna get help, I’m the person I’m here for you. Look at the sun just came out when I said that.
Margaret: You know it’s beautiful on your face. I think the other thing with that, that Sandy speaks to, you mentioned Sandy Swenson who we are both big fans of. The other thing that she talks about is not being the target of the disease. Which is another way of saying what you’re saying you know; one is not being their higher power and trying to know all and be all. But the other is not putting yourself in the bullseye of this disease which is amazingly good at finding whom to blame and justify the next high.
Dianne: And just, you know I think that too is that for some of us on the family side is just getting that realization that I’m not going to be held hostage by this disease, not by my person, I’m not going to be held hostage by this disease anymore. You know and all the people who say well, we were going to you know we have a house in Arizona or house in Florida, I don’t know that we can go because my person is not in a good place, and I just think did you work your whole life for this. To drain your retirement to you know try to fix something for him or her that is their work not yours. Yeah.
Margaret: With parents with the disease a parent, with siblings with the disease, don’t know if you had a partner who had the disease and child. All equally difficult?
Dianne: That’s a good question. Yes, I think all equally difficult. And you know it was after my mom had, after my mom had died when my mom died like I became that point person in our family and so I was the babysitter, the banker, the problem solver, you know the lender. And actually, was my AA sponsor who said your, ’cause family recovery there was a place in our state that had a weeklong program, and she said you’re gonna go. And my siblings were so angry with her, this is none of her damn business and who does she think she is. And I, you know, and I went, my husband and my son were home and I talked to him every night by phone. And it was hard, it was painful. It was, you know what that’s like is to push up against that change and I don’t know what’s on the other side, but I can’t keep doing what I’m doing.
Margaret: Can we stop there a minute before you go any further. That’s so significant! That we are terrified of the change, but we are so beaten down by the same old behavior getting no traction and feeling beat up by that. That we’re willing to then say, scary as this is, let me try something different. That’s recovery for family, for addict, for anybody in the recovery system, wouldn’t you say?
Dianne: Yep. Yep. And then you know my siblings got to the point to is that there were boundaries there. Like you know the I’m not taking your kids all the time. Sam and Mike and I have plans were we’re doing this and we’re doing that, and it wasn’t my dropping everything and you know running out to mop something up for somebody. It was a game changer!
Margaret: And that game changer as a result, did your family adapt or accept the boundaries that you set?
Dianne: Yep, for the most part but I think too is because I hold, I have a plan. If you don’t honor this boundary this is what is going to happen, you know. And so, it was kind of like learned behavior for some of them. I’m not lending you any money anymore. I’m not gonna do that, you have a job if you can figure it out. And even with my one of my sisters is I just can’t talk on the phone with her, after she’s been drinking because it’s too hard for me, and it’s the only time that she ever wants to process the loss in our life, is when she’s in active addiction. Doesn’t wanna do it the next day, doesn’t want to maybe take a look at getting some help that might change things moving forward. So, it was just drawing that line. I can’t talk to you. I love you. I can’t talk to you when you’re like this.
Margaret: And I think the key that you bring up around boundaries that can be so tricky for people to understand is the boundary was for you. You found it too difficult to speak to her in that state. You didn’t want to process losses with someone who was intoxicated because it was not beneficial to you, it was hurtful. Who knows right you’d have to answer that? So, the boundary was anytime you want to be sober and talk I’m here. But if there’s intoxication, I will be removing myself from the conversation and then following through and doing that, when that happened.
Dianne: And that’s the hard part too because these are people you love. You know these are people who are important in your life and to kind of say, this is what I need, this is, now that I’ve got it figured out, this is what I need, and this is what I want. And to hold to that because I mean for all those before I figured that out I would say one more time this is it I’m not gonna pay this for you anymore, I’m not going to give you this money, until you know my husband said every time you do that you taking it away from us, and that was kind of eye opening for me, like I’m hurting my family by thinking I’m helping somebody else and it wasn’t helping. So, it was just to kind of understand and make that plan because before that if it was no more, no more this time I mean it. This time I mean it. the message I was sending as it doesn’t matter what I say, I’m not going to do anything, so nobody got better. (laughter)
Margaret: The other piece is where is your worth and value. Where is your financial stability? Your family time, your needing peace and being OK to have peace. And fighting that inside voice, that I call monkey chatter, but that inside voice that says that’s selfish. You’ve already lost so many siblings you can’t turn your back on this one, they’re actually talking to you. Shouldn’t you stay on the phone and let them talk.
Dianne: Yep.
Margaret: This disease is a brutal manipulator.
Dianne: Absolutely!
Margaret: and it goes back to what you said earlier that you are taking care of you, offers your sibling who wants to speak when they’re sober the best of you.
Dianne: Yep.
Margaret: To be supportive, healthy, loving, accepting versus someone who stays up all night to listen to someone who’s intoxicated process whatever it is, and twirl through all of that emotionally. And then not be healthy if something were to come the next day.
Dianne: And then that goes to just not gonna be held hostage by this, this is where I’m moving. This disease doesn’t just kill the person who has it, you know family members with the stress and the anxiety. Stress and anxiety can kill family members in this disease without that knowledge how to take care of themselves. And you know and I say this is that is that sometimes I see family members who are sicker than their person who has this disease. Physically, spiritually, emotionally and mentally sicker, and they don’t even know it. and so to get this information to understand I can get better whether my person does or not.
Margaret: Absolutely, absolutely and that’s what I hope for everyone listening and you know. What a blessing to hear your story of hope, I’ve been getting that feedback from people who’ve been listening to the podcast. That they just feel so grateful to hear there are stories of hope whether the person sober or not. And that helps people keep going, when they sometimes feel too tired and too afraid to keep going.
I am so grateful that you came into my life, and I thank you so much for sharing and I you know, I have to meet Mike one day ’cause I feel like I know him, but I need to actually meet him and your wonderful family. One of the things I would love you to do, if you’re willing, is to share in your language something to us as a way of saying goodbye. I think that would be a nice way to close.
Dianne: Mino giizhigad noomgon. Ishkodekwe indizhitaaz, migizi indoodem. Odawa zaaga iganing indoonjibaa. Miigwech gichi-manidoo, nimishoomis, nookomis.
So, what I’m trying to say is, is to acknowledge the good that is in everything and then just to be thankful for everything out there that blesses us and to be open to taking that blessing.
Margaret: Thank you Dianne thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing.
Dianne: Yes and thank you for asking me.
Outro: I’ve heard from a few of you that you’ve really enjoyed learning from Dianne. She’s an incredible teacher, a generous spirit who shares so openly about her recovery, her culture, and her story.
Please join me again next week where I will be doing a solo episode based on an inquiry on my Facebook page Embrace Family Recovery LLC. Somebody wrote about, how do you work with a sponsor? How do you find a sponsor? And as a result of hearing those types of questions a lot especially within the 12-step program for family members, I thought it would be a good topic to cover.
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability in sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website
embracefamilyrecovery.com
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you!