Hey there! I wanted to share this episode of The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast with you. In this episode, Julianne Griffin, the founder of Blank Space Recovery and Swift Steps, talks about creating an open, accepting, and supportive environment for Swifties to share their experiences and find wellness. They use Taylor Swift’s music as a way to help people in recovery who may not connect with traditional 12-step programs. Make sure to listen all the way to the end for a fun update on my summer adventures!
#embracefamilyrecovery #recovery #juliannegriffin #swiftsteps #taylorswift #music #addictionrecovery #addictionawareness #addictiontreatment #addictions #familyrecovery #familyrecoverycoach #familyrecoverycoaching #familyaddiction #familyaddictionrecovery #recoverysupport #recoverysupportgroup #recoverysupportservices #womenpodcaster #podcast #addictionpodcast #recoverypodcast #recoverystories #recoverycommunity #YouTubechannel
See full transcript below.
Intro 00:01
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Margaret 00:28
Surprise, summer break. What is that? I am on summer break everybody and I had the opportunity to have this interview that I’m about to share with you, with Julianne Griffin, who is the founder of the Recovery Community for Swifties, which is exactly what it sounds like. It is a recovery community created by Julianne, and she’ll tell you about why, for people who identify with Taylor Swift and her music and identify as Swifties. But in full transparency, I have had the privilege of being on the meeting, and I’m not a Swiftie. I am a fan, but I wouldn’t call myself a Swiftie, and I felt very accepted and welcomed, which I think is a big part of the background of why this came to be. So, I would love you to enjoy this, and if it sounded like an avenue that you’d like to pursue for your own recovery. We’ll share the links and the connections to the Recovery Community for Swifties in the show notes, enjoy and please meet Julianne Griffin.
Bumper 01:37
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
Margaret 01:53
I’m so glad you’re here, Julianne, and I always invite my guests to introduce themselves, because I think that you’ll pinpoint what you want people to know about you, but I do often, because my audience is family members, primarily, and affected loved ones, I do ask people to share how they qualify for their own recovery. If you’re willing to share that, like, are there relationships that helped you qualify? Is it your own recovery? So, give us your quick intro of what you’d like people to know who are listening.
Julianne Griffin 02:23
Alright, so my name is Julianne. I am the founder of Swift Steps, and I am coming up on eight years in September, free of opiates and benzos. They were my drugs of choice. I became an addict in the doctor’s office, I was very much a family member of people who suffer from substance use disorder. I did not believe that drug addiction was a disease. I absolutely with 100% every fiber in my being down in my bones, believed that it was a choice, and it was a moral failing, and I vilified anyone, especially my mother and father. Very early on, I would say they were my qualifiers for that. And then later on, when I went through my own journey, and opiates taught me very quickly that it was not a choice,
Margaret 03:23
right?
Julianne Griffin 03:24
I struggled for like, four to five years in that process, and the qualifiers for me during that time would have been my husband, my mom and my sister, the three most important people in my life. My husband obviously was the most important person I saw every single day. He was the one who tried to show me how different I was in addiction from the person that I was before addiction, like when he met me, because I was not an addict when we got married, I was prescribed opiates, probably 60 days into our marriage and became an act very quickly. And we were only together two years, but the like the day we were married. So, it was like he knew me as this person for two years, and then, boom, I just turned into this completely different person once the drugs entered the picture. So, he would have been a qualifier my sister absolutely because she’s my best friend. I could start crying right now. I love her so much. I’d walk in front of front of a bus for her. I would do anything for her. She really had to pull away from me.
Margaret 04:28
Sure. Can I just add that the emotion that you share, I really appreciate, because there’s people out there who are still struggling to believe it’s a disease Julianne, and to me, that statement you just said with the emotion connected to it of the love for your sister, that is the evidence this is a no fault disease, because if you could have stopped for her, to not lose that closeness, you would have turned it off.
Julianne Griffin 04:57
Absolutely, absolutely there are a lot of things that I struggle to get done for myself in my own life. But if my sister were to come to me and say, I need your help with this, I’m like, boom, let’s do it. Let’s figure it out. Like it’s not a problem, like I’m running, all my engines are running. I can do everything for her. I can do anything for her. So, yeah, absolutely. So, she was a qualifier, especially because the day that I went to treatment, I was like forced into treatment. My work called me out. I fell asleep on the job. I had to go to the clinic and be drug tested. It was a whole thing. But I get to treatment that same day, and I realized, oh my God, my sister is going away on vacation. It’s Friday. I’m supposed to be taking care of her dogs this weekend. Now, for my sister and I, don’t have children, my husband is the director of an animal shelter. My sister is a vet tech. She’s an animal communicator, animals are very much of a part of our life, and for her to still trust me, to be able to take care of the most important thing of in her life, and then for me to go and mess it up in such a horrible way, in such a way that would be so offensive to her, especially because it was drugs, and because she felt the same way about drugs that I did before I became an addict myself,
Margaret 06:19
Right.
Julianne Griffin 06:20
And I would say that that would that was really one of the reasons why I wrestled with being able to say I am a drug addict, I have a substance use disorder, because I could not admit that I was that person, that thing, those people, that shame, all of that, you know?
Margaret 06:36
I do.
Julianne Griffin 06:38
So yeah, and then my mom, oh, my mom. I got the mommy and the daddy issues. Mom’s still around. Dad died when I was 12 of drug overdose and so,
Margaret 06:49
So sorry.
Julianne Griffin 06:50
Thank you, but yeah, so she would be a qualifier, because even when I was using inactive addiction, she was in active addiction, and we were both trying not to be. We were both going through the days where we were like, again, I’m going to try again. I’m going to try again today. And there was, like, this toxic thing between us, like, we worked in the same building because we worked for the same company, and it I would, you know, message her and say, like, do you, do you have any Xanax? Do you have any Ativan? I’m having a panic attack. I can’t make it through today. Oh, my God, I’m going to leave work. And she would be so worried that I was going to lose my job, or how it was showing up to work, she would call me. She would hear my voice, so I would manipulate her, and, you know, really play on that. The fact that, you know, she was a mom who was watching her daughter struggle with something she very much was familiar with also, like, trying to walk that line of like, not enabling. And she would have friends that would tell her, like, you know, I will take my kid. I’ll take my kid down the way to go get what he needs when he’s dope sick, like, and she would say, I could never, I could never do that. Like, I don’t know how people do that, or, like, I know people who use with their children. And I could just never see. I could never do that. She’s like now here I am. Not that we ever used together because we absolutely did not, but we definitely fed off of one another and, like, traded, you know, helped each other out when one was low or whatever, and schemed together and we were shady.
And my sister didn’t want to be around us, because we’re always whispering about something or texting each other that we don’t want her to hear. And so even now, like, we live in the same house together and like, so if we start whispering, she’s like, what are you whispering about? Like, what is I don’t mean to say, like, she gets so reactive, but she’s just like, what is whispering about? Because, and who can blame her? Because we did it so much in active addiction, and it was, it’s so triggering to her, you know, we’re both sober, my mom and I about eight years, like one month,
Margaret 08:47
That’s amazing!
Julianne Griffin 08:48
which is so crazy. We both got, yeah, I say we got tandem DUIs, one month apart from one another. And then we both went into treatment and got so over one month apart. So, we get to celebrate around the same time, which is really cool.
Margaret 09:00
One of the things Julianne that is so relevant to what you’re sharing, I mean, there’s a lot there to unpack for the audience listening that’s really valuable is that. We’ll start with your sister. Triggers are so real on the family side, and whether the person assumes or wants to believe or thinks there’s use involved if the trigger sounds like, looks like, smells like, behaves like past behavior that was associated with use, my language, the Monkey Chatter starts and the insecurity, the fear, the worry, the preoccupation kicks in.
Julianne Griffin 09:38
Yeah,
Margaret 09:39
Those things take recovery on our own as loved ones to figure out how to lessen. Many family members depend on their identified person, the one with the disease, to get well, thinking then they’ll be well and don’t realize the lack of care for themselves and the struggles they’re going to continue to have if they don’t get that care.
Julianne Griffin 10:01
Absolutely.
Margaret 10:02
The other thing that I think you point to in your story of your journey and your disease with your mom is the progression of the illness. Right? We cross lines. We do things we would abhor and never believe we could do as the progression happens,
Julianne Griffin 10:19
absolutely
Margaret 10:21
Again, evidence that it is a disease that changes every fiber in us and makes us do, and think, and behave in ways we just can’t acknowledge. And even the assimilation with other people who use, who use worse, who will cover for, who will be my excuse to not get sober. It’s all part of the insanity of this disease?
Julianne Griffin 10:42
Yeah.
Margaret 10:44
You said earlier that opiates and benzos were your drug of choice.
Julianne Griffin 10:51
Yeah,
Margaret 10:51
It’s interesting, because I’m going to share my language. You share yours. Neither is right or wrong. I say drug of no choice because your evidence of where it takes you and took you shows that it was not a choice.
Julianne Griffin 11:05
Oh, I kind of love that.
Margaret 11:06
So, like to me, those are drugs of no mine is I’m a food addict, so wheat and sugar are my drugs of no choice. And when I start them, I don’t have a choice about it. And so, I take care of my recovery a day at a time. I don’t believe any of us, and you said it best you got addicted due to a doctor’s prescription. There was no choice in that. What it did you, there was no choice in that. What you’ve done in recovery has been your grit, determination and sheer desire to use the programs you’ve chosen to use to get well. And that is the miracle of recovery, that even though it was no choice to have the disease, we absolutely get choices once we find recovery. And I love that.
Julianne Griffin 11:50
It’s really cool.
Margaret 11:52
So, we totally went into the family history. And what is common in this is the genetic predisposition that the gene pool runs this in many ways. Did you get to a point because you said I vilified because you didn’t believe it was disease? Hello. You’re not alone. I can relate. I didn’t believe this was a disease either. Til it was smack in my face, and it was undeniable at that point. What do you think? Or do you think that as you engaged in your recovery and got a better understanding of your own journey, it allowed you to be less vilifying and angry at the parents for their struggle.
Julianne Griffin 12:34
I can remember the moment that I realized that I had started working through some of it. I came home from treatment, and again, my mom and I work in the same building, and so I took a lunch break, and I went and got us sandwiches, and I went to her desk, and we sat down, and we were eating, we were just talking and laughing, and it was like, normal. And I felt like, oh, this is, like, really nice. We’ve, like, never done this before, like, I’m engaging with her on like, a different level. It was like I was able to see her as not just this mom that I was angry with. She was like a human being who had had three kids by the age of 25, years old, by an abusive drug addict who was never around, who didn’t help her. And like, once I did see her through that lens, I could really see, like, okay, she’s a person who has all of her own trauma on top of all of that other stuff, and it’s a lot. So I just started to have compassion for her as just as a human being. And once I was able to do that, I could just kind of remove my own hurt from it, and just see that she really was just trying to, like, do her best. You know, that was really the moment that I realized that it had happened.
But I do remember coming home from treatment, and it was very late at night because they discharged me, and I called my mom, and we sat on the phone, and I just told her about what a blast I had in rehab, and we laughed about all of the things that I had remembered, and like how I had a great time playing bingo for candy, and just like laughing about stupid things, that we did, hallucinations, that we had, stories between all of us, not like, you know, like horrible, horrible war stories, but like, stuff that you gotta laugh at. And you really have to just say, like, look, we’ve all been through some shit, and this is where we ended up, and we all did some really bad things. And like, I don’t know I have to laugh at it, because if I don’t, I’m just gonna sit in it and be upset with myself and be shameful, and I just, I can’t do that anymore. And so, once I was able to move past that shame piece of it, and then see my mom as a human being, then I was also able to, like, try to look, look at myself as, just as a human being too. You know that I was just like a little baby with all my own trauma. And like, I’m just doing the best that I can and having compassion for myself in that way. And I don’t even know if that answers your question, but that’s how I was able to get to that point have compassion for my mom and for myself, and then able to say, like, okay, I’m a drug addict, I’m not a horrible person, I’m not a shameful person, and I can take my messes and turn them into good things, turn them into great things. So yeah, I hope that answers.,
Margaret 15:28
It’s great. Do you practice, if it’s okay, to ask a model of abstinence, 12 step recovery? How do you work a program for you? Has it evolved over the eight years?
Julianne Griffin 15:37
Yeah, it’s changed here and there, because alcohol was never my thing. It was like, wasn’t something that I was like, oh my god, I can’t have that, it’s restrictive or. But it was never anything that I wanted either. Like, I didn’t focus on that so much. For me, it was just not taking my drugs of choice, no choice, the drugs that I took to escape. As long as I kept them out of my life, I’ve remained abstinent from them that that sobriety to me, and then over period, I started to use medical marijuana because I have fibromyalgia. That’s actually why I started taking opiates in the first place, was for chronic pain. So, when I’m in pain, it gets really tricky, and that is when I am the closest to relapse. Is when I’m in pain and I’m just suffering and nothing can be done about it, and I have the ability to make that a little less hard on myself. And so I do use medical marijuana, but I’m abstinent from everything else, and I don’t practice 12 step program. Just kind of just don’t use the drugs that I did, and just try to be a good person every day. And like my mom always says, that I do like a living amends. I work the program every day, but I don’t do the 12 step. I never fully did the 12 steps. So, I can’t even really say if I do, or I don’t to agree with her.
Margaret 17:08
So, that brings to point that my background is the Minnesota model, 12 step model. That’s my recovery. That’s the foundation of my training. And I worked at an amazing treatment center for decades, and it was where I evolved to understand the disease was a disease, and embraced my own recovery, which took time. What I’m curious about, because for me, it’s been a journey to accept that there are different pathways to recovery, to not have judgment. We are a variety of people, I will always advocate for abstinence, but I also have learned in my own practice, it’s not mine to decide what the journey looks like for another human being. You said earlier that the closest you come to relapse is when you’re in that pain. For me, it’s when I’m angry. We’re all different, right? What certain triggers are, the harder triggers to navigate, and when I’m really, really angry, is the only time I’ve actually considered my plan to relapse, and thankfully, didn’t, because of the recovery tools I have. Have you noticed any other triggers for relapse around your use, whether it was trying the alcohol, because it wasn’t your problem, whether it was through the marijuana, or have you been able to be healthy and safe without returning with that?
Julianne Griffin 18:30
I find that my disease manifests in other ways. It doesn’t so much come up in triggering me to want to use unless I’m really in pain, like that’s when I really want to go seek. But I will say that it manifests in other ways. I am separated now. I’ve been separated for over a year, and in that time, I definitely struggle with sex and love addiction. And so there are triggers and and there are times when I noticed that I will want to go pick up the phone and make a phone call and get validation or go seek whatever it is I need in that moment through sex and love, and that is really where it’s been manifesting the most for me these days is needing validation and not having someone to run all of my thoughts and plans by every single day, and have somebody like CO sign or sign off on my stuff letting me know, like, yeah, that’s a good idea. No, that’s not a good idea, because my husband was that for me. Oh, that has been a journey not having that and not trying to get it from everybody else, and just finding that self-worth. So that’s really where it manifests the most for me these days.
Margaret 19:44
So, to that point with cross addiction, do you think that sometimes in this journey, we look at the variance of damage potential to us and think, okay, that one’s totally not okay, but this one I can neagle with a little bit. And this one’s okay. Like, where do you sit on that? Because I think that’s one of the challenges I have when I don’t practice an abstinence model, which thankfully, I’ve been willing to do. But tell me what your thoughts are on that.
Julianne Griffin 20:10
Um I think a lot of people end up saying, like, you know, I all smoke cigarettes, but as long as I don’t do this, I’m good. Like, yeah, for me, it’s like, medical marijuana. I can use that as long as I don’t, as long as I’m not going and drug seeking. Um, I can come home and order a bunch of food and eat it, as long as I don’t go purge it afterwards. You know, like, everybody has, like, little rules for themselves, I guess, to make sure that they’re not going too far in the other direction. And I guess those would be some of mine.
Margaret 20:48
And do you have people to help you hold yourself accountable? Because I know left to my own devices, I can’t do those things.
Julianne Griffin 20:54
Yes, very much. I have to rely on people. I do talk to my sister about more, bigger, important things that I’m struggling with because she’s really good with, like, big picture stuff. I absolutely lean on Emily with when I’m struggling with the sex and love addiction, because she’s such a hype girl. I’m really trying to think, like, what do I go to my mom with? I go to my mom with a lot of stuff I shouldn’t go to her for because I’m still expecting her to be this mom that she’s not and that she’s never going to be. And then I just like want to hold her accountable and crucify her for it, so that that’s something I’m working on. But absolutely, my therapist, too. I’m in therapy once a week. I started that when I got separated, I had this question in my head, which was, if you could tell your younger self one thing, what would it be right? And I could never think of the answer, and I sat on it for years, what is the answer to this question? Because every single choice changes everything else. Like, do I tell my sister not to go meet up with that guy? Do I not go meet up with that guy? Do I submit that application to that school? Like, everything changes everything. And so, the best answer I could come up with was go to therapy and never stop, because the best me is going to be best prepared for anything that comes at me. And so once I kind of, like, realized that, and I was like, well, if that’s what I could tell myself, I need to go to therapy right now, and I need to never stop. So, I started, and I have not stopped, and I’ve been in therapy once a week, and it’s been a game changer. And you know, you think like, well, I’m just going and I’m, like, reporting what I’ve done all week to my therapist, because I want a gold star and I want validation from her, and it’s like, I’m just like, we’re recording a podcast episode and I’m just catching her up on the week or whatever. Like, why am I doing this every week? Why am I paying for this? It seems so silly, but exactly a year later is when I started noticing all the things we were talking about a year before, starting to, like, come up and change. And so, it’s like, okay, I’m seeing all of these changes. It didn’t take a year to see changes, but I’m just saying, like, I’m seeing huge changes now. And so, I definitely go to my therapist with that kind of stuff, because she really helps me work through it and un catastrophize and all of those things that I do. She’s just really good at helping me, like, bring it back to some sort of homeostasis in my brain, whereas I can look at it from like a lens that’s not so chaotic and erratic in my disease brain, my addict brain. That makes sense,
Margaret 23:33
Totally makes sense. What I hear you do is, first of all, some of the language you have is very much 12 step based, which I’m familiar with. Some of the language, is probably different avenues that you’ve reached, and therapeutic interventions, which I think is great. The key that I think is true, that you demonstrate, is connection is the opposite of addiction. And having people in our lives who we will be honest and transparent with, and people who, if we’re not being honest and transparent with, we are in deep doo doo, right. So having that set up for ourselves, and it is not my job, nor my desire, to decide whether you should or should not use A, B or C. It’s about quality of life, wellness. The education that I was given, the training I was given was it’s a slippery slope when we add this option this,
Julianne Griffin 24:23
Yeah,
Margaret 24:23
My disease likes to lie to me with my own voice. So, it’s really challenging to figure out what is the truth and what is the disease. So having those mirrors and those people is what I hear you have to help you navigate this and figure it out for yourself. So, I want to, of course, get into the reason that I found you and talk about the very creative and unique founding business that you created. I don’t know if you call it a business, but I know there’s some changes coming here in July.
Julianne Griffin 24:54
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Margaret 24:55
So, you’re the founder of Swift Steps. So, tell, us, all of us about this, because I find it fascinating and creative and innovative, and I think anything that does that offers an audience for people who may not have found their path. So, tell us about Swift Steps. Where did that come from?
Julianne Griffin 25:15
Swift Steps comes from. Emily and I, we could not get tickets to the Taylor Swift concert to the Eras Tour. So, we just went outside. We took my jeep down; we parked across the street. We popped the back. We made like a little bed in the back. We had snacks. We had drinks. It was great. We just hung out and hung out with all the other people and sang the songs. And it was the most amazing experience. When we were driving down there. Just everybody just sees, sea of people in all their creative outfits, and everybody’s just so excited for everybody else that everybody’s there and like, I love your outfit. You love my outfit. Let’s take pictures. Let’s trade bracelets. Like I never felt more bodily, physically safe in that area, like I did not feel nervous or scared at all. Everybody was a safe person, and everybody was just happy. Everybody’s allowed to be who they are, be accepted, and everybody was just happy. And it was like, the closest to Barbie Land. I like, like, looking around, it was like, this is the closest Barbie Land we’re ever going to get. There’s no hate here. It’s just all love. And I thought, like, how cool would that be to have that in a recovery community, just like all Swifties in a recovery community? And so, I thought about it, and I looked up like sober Swifties, and I couldn’t find anything. And I just thought that was bananas, because there’s groups for everything Swifties, like I saw one last night. It’s a single Swifties group. Because there’s girls who, like, I wanted me to do that’ll listen to the albums with me, and so, like, it’s a good idea. So, I created the group, and people started joining, and it kind of took off. But prior to that, I had founded a business called Blank Space Recovery. I went and I got a peer specialist certification so I could be a recovery mentor, and I wanted to start a job so that I could eventually leave my full-time job and do this. Because I just I am so fulfilled by this, and not so much by my day job.
Bumper 27:16
This podcast is made possible by listeners like you,
Margaret 27:21
When I reflect on my decades of work with families of people with the disease of addiction, I have seen few siblings get the same resources provided partners, parents or even children. Numerous siblings have told me they felt they couldn’t share in a traditional Al-Anon or Nar-Aon meeting because the parents and partners pain seems so much more significant than their own. The Embrace Family Recovery Coaching Group for Siblings will meet for six groups, coaching sessions, including education on the no fault disease, connection with other siblings, strategizing together, communication, boundary setting and some surprise guests who are siblings themselves. This summer course for siblings begins Tuesday, July 16, and the group will be for participants ages 16 years and older. To find out more, head to my website or hit the link that you’ll find in my show notes below.
Bumper 28:24
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery \Podcast. Can you relate to what you’re hearing? Never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.
Margaret 28:35
Based on if I understand what you just shared in your story, a place of feeling accepted as you were. You were comfortable in your skin. You felt the love and as you said, closest to Barbie, so from that feeling and that experience, you were like, why could we not start a recovery room or rooms for people who were Swift fans or felt that same energy came from that same concept and to talk about recovery in these spaces?
Julianne Griffin 29:11
Yeah absolutely. And we kind of even take like on Saturday mornings, we do a song prompt, and we break down the song, and we explain how we could relate it to our addiction and recovery journeys. So, on Saturday mornings right now, we’re going through the newest album, we’re just going right in order. And so we did the song Florida last week, and then we did guilty as sin yesterday. And so basically, I just write down all my thoughts, and then we open the meeting up, and I break down, like, verse by verse, and I say, like, this made me think of this and that and these feelings and these themes and these emotions. And then I, you know, open it up to everybody else, and then they reflect back about, you know, maybe, maybe what I said, or what they might may have thought of. So, it’s almost kind of like a journal prompt meeting, even, and a lot of people bring notes. They bring their notebook that they brought things that they wrote down, or they’re they’re taking notes about other things that people said that they want to maybe journal about later. So, it’s pretty cool to be able to look at the music through a completely different lens. For a lot of people that they’ve met, maybe have never even thought about that, even myself. Like I went to a rally, because the mayor here does not like harm reduction, so I went to a rally. And there’s a group called Savage Sisters, and they’re so amazing. And I was like, they’re so hardcore, and I’m like, watching what they’re doing, and I’m like, and I’m hosting a Taylor Swift Recovery Group. Like, what? Like, that seems so silly. Like, not enough. And then I was like, no like, but this is where your expertise lie. Like you connect with the Swifties. This is amazing. Don’t, don’t discount what you’re doing. All connection in this way is good. And for me, what was so big about that concert was the inclusivity,
Margaret 30:58
Right.
Julianne Griffin 30:59
And so, making it a place where you could come and it didn’t have to be abstinence based. And we very much do believe in harm reduction, promote harm reduction. And you know, you can come in and say, like, look, I I’m going to be honest. I’m loaded right now, but I need to talk about it. And like, it’s okay, just turn your camera off and just don’t trigger anybody visually, you know. But I’ve gone to meetings loaded many times, but I still needed support. And if you can’t go to a meeting loaded, where else can you go for support? I feel like and so I just wanted it to be a place where you could say, you know, I use medical marijuana and not be shamed, and talk about it.
Margaret 31:39
And to your point about comparing to the Savage, is it Sister?
Julianne Griffin 31:44
Savage Sisters?
Margaret 31:45
Yeah, yeah, I’m familiar with them, also. There is space in this big world for a variety of people and approaches, and that’s the thing, not having to slam one or the other, not having to vilify one or the other, and finding your path. I think that the other thing you shared was wanting a space where you could recreate that feeling you had or offer that space that offers that acceptance to others.
Julianne Griffin 32:16
Yeah.
Margaret 32:18
When you look at the journey you’ve been on with Swift steps. Has it been surprising? Has growth been exponential? Like, where do you sit with it? How has it been since you’ve been doing it for over the year, now?
Julianne Griffin 32:34
I want to say one thing really quick. The night before I launched, I just happened to connect with this woman on TikTok. Her name is Shannon Belton. She is a licensed drug and alcohol counselor. She is just the definition of women, uplifting women, just for no other reason than to want to see other women succeed and wanting to help people in recovery. And she just saw me say, like, in a comment, that I was going to be launching a business. And she was like, oh my god, I’m in Pennsylvania. I know so much, like, I can help you. And I connected with her, and I had a phone call with her the night before, and I was so scared. I was so scared to launch; I’m so scared to self-disclose. I was so scared about so much. And my mom had me feared up about all the backlash that I was going to get from people in the program and, Shannon just was like, there is a place for everyone. Everybody should be given the choice and the right to recover how they want to. And drug addiction is a business. Recovery is a business. Like, it’s okay, like, she made me feel better about things, and she made me feel okay about my skills and what I had to offer, and to understand that it wasn’t just like this cheesy thing, like it was something really, really cool. And she helped me. She was on my first meeting with me. She helped me facilitate the first couple months, because I really had no idea what I was doing. I was so scared, but I just pushed through it. I just kept pushing through that fear, because I had someone like her, and I had someone like my sister who did the same thing with her business couple years prior, you know, just lifting me up and just reminding me what I had to offer. So, the growth from that point to now has been, I can’t even believe, like my own personal growth and without women like her and women like Emily and women like my sister, like I just wouldn’t be here. They just kept lifting me and pushing me through the fear compassionately, yeah, and the growth, it went from 300 to 600 to 1200 people in the group. And the group is active, and it’s beautiful, and people are constantly supporting each other, and it’s just been so amazing. I really every single day, am brought to tears by the support in the group, just for no other reason, just to give support to another Swiftie. It’s just such a such a great thing.
Margaret 34:58
How do people find it? Where are you? What is, what is the invitation? Is it recovery from anything? Is it recovery around substances? You know what? I mean, like, your room is for whom?
Julianne Griffin 35:10
Okay, so it started out as Swift Steps, the Recovery Community for Sober Swifties. And then Emily started helping me out, and Emily’s experience more lives with mental health challenges, rather than drug addiction. And so we kind of expanded it a little bit, because some people were asking, Is this just recovery from drug addiction? And I didn’t want to exclude anyone, so we took sober out, and we just named it the Recovery Community for Swifties. And so it is. It is for anyone, anybody who struggles with anything. You just have to understand that we are not abstinence based. We do champion harm reduction. We support all pathways. Our only real big role is like, show respect, confidentiality and don’t tell anybody else what to do with their recovery. But everybody is welcome, but that those are, like, the, really, the main things that we just said. And you, I mean, you don’t have to be a Taylor Swift Fan. You just can’t be a hater. That’s all.
Margaret 36:08
Well, it’s funny, because I was on your Facebook page, I got to join and
Julianne Griffin 36:15
I was going to say, yeah, you can find us on Facebook. And then swiftsteps.org
Margaret 36:21
Thank you, and the Facebook is named?
Julianne Griffin 36:24
The Facebook is named Swift Steps, the Recovery Community for Swifties.
Margaret 36:30
And I want those out there, and I’ll link them so people can find you. I was in the meeting, and it was very much a place of support and encouragement and a love for one another. I’m fascinated to talk about how you do your you touched on it the meetings where you do music and how they connect to recovery. And I was wondering if you’d be willing to share an example of that for people curious how that works.
Julianne Griffin 37:00
So yeah. So, there’s a song guilty as sin. We did that one yesterday, and that one is a favorite of mine on the album, because it’s very much about feeling guilty as sin, just about your thoughts when you haven’t even done the thing, but you’ve done it in your head, and it’s like, how can I be guilty of sin when I haven’t even touched his skin, you know. And I could really relate that to when we beat ourselves up and feel shameful about our thoughts. So just having a relapse dream or a relapse thought, a lot of people will beat themselves up for that, like, I’m a year sober, six months sober, 18 months sober, why am I still having these thoughts? Why do I still want these things? And I really, really can relate to that with that song, and I also can relate to that song through the sex and love addiction with the just longing for something that you want so bad that you feel like it’s going to make you feel better, or at least just make you feel even keeled a little bit, not even better. Yeah, all of her songs that have to do with, like, a on and off toxic relationship, just drop the drug right in the place of the man and like I can totally relate. So, any song like that, I can relate the drug and the relationship.
Margaret 38:27
So it’s interesting. I’ll share this with anyone who might hear it from your audience, as well as anyone listening from mine. I was taught really early on in recovery, and forever grateful for this person who taught me this. That when I have a using dream, because I do, to thank my Higher Power for the gift of a reminder of what it would have been like without having to use and I really appreciated that. Because that’s so important to me, because I would be in shame. You know how you could wake up from a dream about, for me, my husband, or for you, your partner or your husband who you’re separated from, and I would be so angry with him, like it was real. It doesn’t help me, right? Doesn’t help him, doesn’t help our relationship. To me, I think it’s the same thing with the using dream. It’s like, wow, I don’t want to be back there. I don’t want it. And so, it was literally thank your Higher Power for that reminder of what it would be like if you picked up and keep going. And I and I cherish that message.
Julianne Griffin 39:29
I had a moment of clarity like that myself, and I woke up from that dream, and I just felt like, Thank God I’m not in that because in the dream, I wasn’t even like using. It was just me lying around the using and the feeling of the anxiety and the fear of the lies. Oh my God, because I don’t lie. And then I started lying about all of these things to my husband, and just living with that. When I woke up from that, I was like, oh, my God, thank God, I’m not there. I don’t want to do that,
Margaret 40:03
right
Julianne Griffin 40:04
Yeah, yeah.
Margaret 40:05
I mean, I think it’s a freebie, if you like, it’s a way to remember really clearly why I don’t want to do it again.
Julianne Griffin 40:10
I love that.
Margaret 40:12
Me too. Um, did you ever get to see the concert? Because that was, you know, you shared you were outside in this magical experience. Did you ever get to see the concert?
Julianne Griffin 40:21
I did not,
Margaret 40:22
Oh, wow. You did dirty.
Julianne Griffin 40:23
I mean, I watched it on TV all the time, like it’s on right now. It’s just, you know, off because we’re on camera. But yeah, I have seen it many times, like on the live streams and, you know, on my own TV. But my sister and I. This is actually, I don’t know the story might be a good thing or a bad thing for your audience. My sister, my sister, called me one night, and she’s like, I found tickets, but they’re like, a lot of money. I sent her my credit card information right away, right? Because first of all, I didn’t even think that she would be willing to go, but then she told me, like, yeah, let’s do it. So, she got tickets in Miami. I’ve never taken a trip with my sister anywhere. I don’t go on vacation. So, I was like, just go ahead, buy the tickets. And then we decided we were going to call my mom and we were going to ask her to subsidize our tickets so that it’s not so irresponsible. And we totally schemed together to call manipulate my mom and used the fact that she never gave us graduation parties or birthday parties or any of the things to get the money for the Taylor Swift concert. And guess what? We got the money. And my mom’s always like, you guys manipulated me, and. We told her we were going to stop smoking, and we didn’t. And yeah, we totally did, we weren’t our best selves that day, but we got the tickets. But so funny is that, like, everything that we used against my mom, we learned from my mom, so she’s like, I kind of can’t be more I couldn’t be more proud, but at the same time, like, come on, you’re not supposed to use it against me.
Margaret 41:59
So, what I would say there is giving your mom grace. Her disease taught you guys really young how to be in the world, and your disease amplified it.
Julianne Griffin 42:11
Oh, yeah.
Margaret 42:12
And if you believe you have a no-fault disease and you didn’t know what you didn’t know until you got into recovery, the same is true for your mom. What I love is your transparency about I used those old behaviors to my advantage to get Taylor Swift tickets. Your transparency is real, and my audience will appreciate it also, but also possibly it’s a good reminder for families to recognize that even though a person can get into recovery, we can tap into those old behaviors at a quick whim, if we’re motivated. And our job as recovering human beings is to keep an eye on that and to clean that up when we do it. Our family’s jobs is to maintain their recovery so that they don’t fall into that trap for themselves.
Julianne Griffin 42:59
Yeah,
Margaret 43:00
Because that could build resentment and all sorts of stuff. But I don’t think it’s bad for my audience to hear that. I think it’s a bit of transparency. They sometimes need to hear that even though we can put down the substance, we can put down, the behaviors we learned from the disease worked really well for a very long time.
Julianne Griffin 43:15
Oh yeah. And my mom always says, like, you know you guys know how to survive and thrive in this world, because I gave you no other choice. And she’s like, I know that’s horrible. She’s like, but I watched some of my friends’ children that can’t do a thing for themselves, and I see you guys, and you’re, surviving. So, she’s like, I’m thankful for it. But at the same time, it’s like, it’s a tricky situation.
Margaret 43:44
So, in July, the transition is going to be to what?
Julianne Griffin 43:48
So, July 1, the transition goes from a completely free model to a paid membership model. And there are two memberships. We do have a free membership. So that is called, This Is Me Trying, and it is a pay what you can when you can option. So, you it’s just like making, just paying whatever you can, just to support us for what you are having access to. So, and what you do get access to is the Facebook Community for the support there, and then you get access to all of the resources that we have on our portal. There are workbooks, and journals, and curated lists, and, you know, feelings wheels, and PDFs and downloads and things like that. And then you also get access to a Tuesday night meeting, which is called the Speak Now Speaker Meeting. And we have a Swiftie come every week, and they tell their addiction and recovery journey, and they weave in how Taylor Swift has been a part of that, and you know how she has been important to their recovery. And so that meeting is available for free, and the pay what you an option. And then the paid membership is $33 and that is access to all of the meetings, all of the things on the portal and access to the Facebook community. Okay what’s your hopes for? Swift Steps? I have so many great hopes. And you know, I don’t have like, a nailed down, exact vision of what I would want it to be. If I could say what I wanted would want it to be, I would want it to be something that could be completely accessible to all of the Swifties that would want to have access to it in some way. If I could get grants or scholarships or something like that to make it something so where it’s like completely nonpaid. That would be amazing. Like that would be the dream for me. But right now it is paid so that I can grow it into something like that. I would really like to be able to go into rehabs and halfway houses and make friendship bracelets and listen to music with some of the girls and connect with, and men, girls and boys over things that like, things that you don’t consider a bridge to recovery. Like we’re using Taylor Swift as a bridge to get people to recovery when they can’t find any other way to connect with it. Like a lot of young children may not be able to connect with AA or NA or a 12 step program, but they might really love Taylor Swift, and it may be a way to get them interested and involved in their own recovery. And I found that it’s gotten a lot of people in this group even more involved in their recovery with just the journaling. Journaling has been incredible. So, the ultimate, ultimate goal,
Margaret 46:40
Yeah.
Julianne Griffin 46:41
would be to be in a room with Taylor Swift, collaborating. That would be the ultimate dream goal. Like that would be the North Star, anything that gets us to there in the middle. I’m so excited for I don’t know what it is, but I can’t wait.
Margaret 47:03
And I really appreciate your language just then about, I see this as a bridge to help people find their recovery. It may be a steppingstone to a 12-step meeting. It may be a steppingstone to abstinence. It may not be. It may be a medical assisted treatment is okay, here to talk about, you know, harm reductions. Okay, so I love the bridge concept. I also really appreciate, and I’m sure this is part of the love for Swifties as well. Is music has power.
Julianne Griffin 47:31
Yes,
Margaret 47:33
It reaches us. It touches our soul, it evokes emotion, it gives us thoughts. It changes our mood. And I love that you’re using music in a platform around people who may not normally because of trauma, mental illness, substance use disorder and other addictions, really struggle with emotions.
Julianne Griffin 47:53
Yeah, it’s been really beautiful. The songs really do bring up a lot. The lyrics bring up a lot. And people’s perceptions and understanding of lyrics and just melodies, and it’s just incredible what it brings up and allows us to process
Margaret 48:18
Exactly
Julianne Griffin 48:19
I truly processed some feelings that I did not know that I had about my separation in a meeting last week with the song Florida, I wasn’t even really a fan of the song. Then I sat down to write down my thoughts, and it completely related it to my drug addiction. And by the end of my share, I was like, holy I just processed some stuff, and I thanked everybody. I was like, thank you for allowing me to be able to process that here in real time with you. It’s pretty cool.
Margaret 48:50
Well, I think it reminds me to tie back to my history of the founding fathers of the 12 steps. When they started, it was one to another, no expert in the room. We do our own work in Tang junction with a group meeting, and that’s what I hear you do, and that’s what I witnessed in your meeting when I have been there. I think that it is truly peer support, no pro, no expert. There may be people with expertise and skills, but it’s not an identified person.
Julianne Griffin 49:21
Correct? I was gonna say, yeah, that was, that’s a big insecurity of mine, definitely the imposter syndrome. You know, I’m not a doctor. I don’t have I was looking at all your credentials. I was like, oh my God, she’s so credentialed. Look at her. She’s so smart. Like, I’m gonna sound like such a dummy speaking to this woman. But I yeah, I find it to be. It’s like a weird thing, like a lot of people, they can’t connect with someone who is a doctor that has a degree. And I remember, personally for myself, going to IOP and sitting down with this guy and him trying to talk to me about being involved in IOP, and I looked at him, and I said, what is your experience with this? Like, what the hell do you know about this? Do you actually know, or did you just study this in a book? Because if you don’t know, I don’t want to. I can’t, we can’t work together, because you have no street cred, you can’t. You don’t understand this at the level that I do, and so I don’t know, I try to remember that when I have that imposter syndrome, that a lot of people, they can’t go to the meetings, or they don’t want to go to the meetings in their community, because they’re everyone there is their clients, because they are a therapist, and they also have substance use disorder. So yeah, while, while it is peer support, and on my end, a lot of people that show up are therapists, and I can’t tell you how validating that is. Like, the other day, I walked out of my room, and I passed my mom, and I just did like a little shoulder shimmy, and she was like, what now? And I was like, a therapist just joined my group. I was so happy. It’s so validating, yeah, so it is truly peer support. And
Margaret 51:01
It is.
Julianne Griffin 51:01
I don’t know, I feel like some people feel like when they’re not paying a huge amount for the hour, they feel like they’re not paying somebody to listen to them. They feel like their responses are more genuine. It’s because somebody wants to listen. That’s some of the feedback that I’ve gotten anyway. That’s not, that’s not how I feel about my therapist, but that’s how some of the feedback that I’ve gotten Anyway.
Margaret 51:22
What it comes down to everybody gets to find their way.
Julianne Griffin 51:25
Yeah.
Margaret 51:26
Who they work with is who they work with, plus us therapists, we put our underwear on one foot at a time, just like you do.
Julianne Griffin. 51:31
Also, like the messenger is really important, and I always forget this piece is that, like the message just as much as who’s delivering it. And the delivery is so important. Who is it coming from? I know that I could not hear some things from certain people, like I just said and if someone else maybe said it to me, I could hear it in a different way. And so, I just think it’s really a cool thing now that we can say like, oh, okay, well, maybe these other places aren’t working for you, and you are struggling. And maybe, maybe try this Taylor Swift group, or maybe just try a music journaling group. Or there’s all these different pathways, like, let’s just try to find a bridge for you.
Margaret 52:13
I agree 100% and I also think I never, and I encourage my clients and people I work with never to forget that the disease has a voice in the party too. And that’s, you know, really important piece of when I have resistance, is it me? Is it my disease? What’s going on? And authenticity is sexy, no matter who it’s from. And so really, just showing up as authentic as we can is amazing.
Julianne Griffin 52:41
That’s what I’m trying to do every day. And when you just said that, that was validating to me, because I immediately, I was like, oh my god, stop. So, you’re saying too much. You don’t sound good, but like my sister is constantly saying to me, like, authenticity will win every single time. And once I started just being more human, it’s just the truth. And I’ll say that, like there’s specifically one person in our group that comes, and she is just herself, and I tell her all the time, I just love the chaotic energy that you bring, because my chaos is your chaos. And I feel seen, and I feel like the fact that you and I can be so completely chaotic and real in meetings. It allows other people to be more relaxed and who they are in the meetings, too.
Margaret 53:27
And I don’t know this for a fact, because I don’t know Taylor Swift, but I think one of the reasons that her music speaks to so many is she puts her truth on her words, and her authenticity comes through on her videos and her engagements. And that is sexy, and beautiful, and appealing, and so I think what a great role model, in many ways, for your group, to have the person who you listen to and appreciate be that way.
Julianne Griffin 53:52
Yeah, I mean, she really just shows us that you can be so messy and vulnerable. There’s one song that she says like, I’m so in love with him, but he avoids me like the plague. I would she wrote. I was like, oh my god, I would never write that on paper or admit that to somebody. But that’s so real, like we’ve all felt that way. The things that she writes down and is so real about and allows us to just feel more validated by or it’s just incredible.
Margaret 54:34
Thank you, Julianne, for spending time with me this morning. It was great to hear your passion and enthusiasm for the Swift Recovery Community. Swifties are people who offer acceptance, and love, and engagement of meeting people where they’re at and you are very much true to them. The reason that I was drawn to learning more about this is my constant desire to learn about the different pathways people find their wellness, and to work on from a place of not being judgmental, because it may be different than the path I found, and I’m very grateful we live in a world where there are a variety of pathways, and it’s not mine to judge how you find your way. Julianne offers a place for people who connect with Taylor Swift’s music and connect it to their own recovery and wellness and offer support and acceptance in their rooms. So, check it out if you want.
And a sidebar, I also am really excited to go and be a part of the story Julianne shared of the environment at the Eras concert when I go on July 4 to Amsterdam with my father, Teresa and Han. It’s going to be a wild ride, but I’m really grateful for the opportunity, and I’m grateful for people thinking outside the box and finding their place for recovery. So, enjoy your summer, play. I will be playing in Amsterdam, having never been before and very privileged to be able to go. Take care of you.
Outro 56:13
I want to thank my guests for their courage and vulnerability in sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website,
This is Margaret Swift Thompson, until next time, please take care of you.
