In this final episode with best-selling author Karen Casey, we talk about family dynamics and the belief that the family we are born into is the family we need to grow as individuals. Karen discusses her favorite books and why she participates actively in Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-Anon weekly. Grace, acceptance, and compassion for self and others have been a thread throughout our discussion. Karen shares a quote from the meditation book she is reading daily.
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See full transcript below.
00:01
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Intro: Welcome back to the final episode of the podcast with Karen Casey! Bestselling author of 13 books for people in recovery.
In today’s episode we will discuss the family dynamics she experienced in her family and how she believed she was born to be in this family, that it was perfect for her despite the experiences she had. Let’s get back to Karen.
01:10
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast
Margaret 01:26
One of the other things that stood out to me because I have a soft spot for many aspects of the family, but for sure children. Is that you have written that I could see 1,2,3,4 kids’ books, teenagers, young women, and then there’s one with your grandchild.
Karen: Right.
Margaret: For boys?
Karen Casey 01:49
For boys. And that was written one. He was like, oh my gosh, she was like eight years old. He’s 32 now. And so, boys’ book of daily thoughts that he wrote. And it was I can remember so well, he wrote longhand, and we’d sit at the kitchen table. And I would kind of coach him by saying, what do you think would be a good topic? What do you feel as a little boy, and he would say, ah, and he would come up with an idea. And I will say just write about it. And it was amazing. To discover that he had so many thoughts.
But the books that I had done for young girls, were really the kind of mine realization of that’s where it all started for me.
Margaret: Sure.
Karen: As a young girl.
Margaret: Sure.
Karen: As just not, not knowing not understanding anything not feeling okay about anything. So, I wanted young girls to realize that however they felt was okay. And the main thing they needed to do was to reveal it, to talk about it, you know, be who you need to be. Girls to girls, talk to each other.
Margaret: Yeah.
Karen: And you know, that’s really the healing.
Margaret: It is.
Karen: The path for all of us. No matter what our age, the healing path is finally, to talk about it.
Margaret 03:22
Shine a light on it, exposure.
Karen: Shine a light on it.
Margaret: I think it’s like the boogeyman concept, which, under the bed or whatever, what we do is shine the light to reassure the children’s nothing’s there. But I think what’s in my head is so powerful on my functionality on a day-to-day basis. And if I don’t let someone in to clarify what’s complete cockamamie insanity, versus what’s actually healthy for me to be thinking about, and what do I turn over to my higher power? What do I get help with because I can’t manage it. If we keep it in here, which is so classic with this family disease of addiction. Everything’s kept in, and held down, and tried to be managed. That’s when we get into, I think, so much distress. And if we can start letting people see this and not be so ashamed of it and start letting people in to hear our inner voices and our stories. We can absolutely breathe more deeply and take a moment and not be so reactive, and crisis oriented.
Karen Casey 04:27
Right. My family was reactive, I became reactive. It made sense that I took that first drink at age 13 because it quelled somewhat my need to react to everything in the family. Because with that drink, I thought, oh my gosh, look how different I can feel because I felt like I needed to fight the battle. On behalf of my mother, and my younger brother. My dad finally got the boy that he wanted. And then of course, my brother Jim couldn’t measure up. I mean, not surprising. My dad was such a perfectionist. And Jim, he struggled in school, he struggled to catch a ball, when my dad would throw it at him, he just, he ended up at age 20, having a nervous breakdown. And now he’s 81.
Finally, after my dad died, probably five or six years after our dad died, he called me up. He was living in Phoenix, and he said, well, I just want you to know that I’ve finally forgiven daddy. And he just had such a tough life. He ended up, and again, my dad wasn’t alcoholic, but he might as well have been, it would almost have been easier.
Margaret 05:54
Alcoholic tendencies and behaviors.
Karen Casey 05:58
Yes, and if he had been an active alcoholic, we could have at least pointed to that and said, that’s why he’s behaving this way.
Margaret: Right.
Karen: There were so many alcoholics in his family. So, you know, I think he wasn’t an active alcoholic, because by God I’m not going to do that, like Uncle George, like Uncle Nick.
Margaret: Right
Karen: You know, like all of those other people. But when Jim, Jimmy Kirk, we always called him for years and years, even when he was a grown man. He flunked out of college. Not surprisingly, he didn’t want to even go, he went to business school, became a bookkeeper. My dad helped him get a job. Unfortunately, my dad drove by the place where Jim worked every morning on his way to the bank. And if Jim’s car wasn’t already in the parking lot, he would get to work and call Jim at home. Hey, why aren’t you already at work?
Now Jim, was 20 or 21 at that point. And he was incapable any longer of going to work. And his boss, who my dad had known, came to Jim’s home, and I think this says so much to families in general. The boss came to Jim at home and said, you know, Jim, I’m going to have to let you go. But I have written a letter of recommendation for you. And I’ve made an appointment for you to see somebody I know in Indianapolis, we lived in Lafayette, that wants to interview you for a job. He said, you need to get out of this town, or your dad will destroy you.
Margaret: Wow.
Karen: I mean, that’s what families do to each other when they are so unhealed. And my dad didn’t intend to be a bad person.
Margaret: No.
Karen: He was afraid.
Margaret 07:58
Well, I think that’s a very important point to distinguish it for everybody. I tell parents this a lot because they come to me with this guilt and this feeling of failure, and what did I do wrong and. All mixed up with other emotions.
And I always say your mal intent is not there, you have no intent to hurt the people you birthed and love. You’re doing the best you can without the actual information to understand what you’re dealing with, from your own perspective, or from their perspective.
So, let’s peel it back and give you some tools and some education and some strategies to move forward with, that help you not feel guilty, but also not be so involved in what they’re doing, which is scary as hell for them to do.
Karen Casey 08:42
Right.
Margaret: Your dad didn’t intend to harm you
Karen: No, he didn’t intend to harm anybody.
Margaret 08:51
If he was a perfectionist to that point, and he tried so hard. Every day, I’m worried so much about things that were out of his control that level. There’s no way he intended to harm anyone that he loved.
Karen Casey 09:02
Right. It saddens me to think that he lived with that fear his whole life until the day he died. And when we had that conversation, and I, I mean, I just was stunned because what had happened when he was six years old. He was mowing the lawn in Frankfort, Indiana where he grew up. And his younger, little brother got his fingers caught in lawnmower. And he cut off the tips of two fingers of his younger brother. And he was absolutely brutalized by his parents, for what he had done.
Margaret 09:48
Well and already devastated for what he did anyway.
Karen Casey 09:52
And from that moment on, it was like, I’ll never make a mistake again.
09:56
This podcast is made possible by listeners like you.
Bumper: I am so excited to announce I will be giving a retreat in Nashville TN March 1st to 3rd of 2024.
This is so exciting because I love retreats where we get to be together in person and continue our journeys of recovery the retreat is entitled ‘Building Your Bridge From the Wreckage of Addiction to Family Healing.’
Dede Armstrong and I will be presenting a weekend of interaction, education, community building, and support for people touched by the disease of addiction.
Please find information on the show notes attached to this episode -where you can register or learn more about this retreat.
You can also find it on my website:
under ‘Work with Margaret’ and retreats.
I really hope you’ll join us for this healing and sharing experience in the great Nashville TN!
10:56
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, can you relate to what you’re hearing? Never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.
Margaret 11:08
You know what’s fascinating, Karen is? Well, there’s a lot. I mean, we could probably talk for hours. But the thing that’s fascinating to me is your story speaks to grace.
For yourself, for the people that came before you, for your curiosity, to learn more about their stories, thanks to Terry Williams, to give you that direction. That have freed you, but also given them so much and understood more, you know, your father’s anger could very well be just written off as being an angry, miserable human being, whereas you have the capacity through talking to him and learning and understanding that it was driven by fear, which you can have compassion for.
Karen Casey 11:48
Right? Right, it’s like that conversation with each of them changed significantly, how I looked at each of them for the rest of my life. I was, like I say about 38. At that time, my dad lived into his late 80s, and so did my mother. So, it gave me many years of being able to love them in the way they deserve to be loved.
Margaret: Wonderful.
Karen: I feel so grateful that I ended up finding a 12-step way of living. That my entire journey was, I think, so intentional. And when you mention the books, I know full well that as a kid, I didn’t ever think that I was going to be somebody who wrote books, that maybe were helpful to others. I never was able to have children. Though I’ve always felt like well, that fits to, you know, I was supposed to give birth to books.
Margaret 12:55
Wow. And your books helped so many children of others, like what a gift, what a gift for people to possibly read something that you write, that helps them look at their self and the people that loved them in a different way.
I think it’s also very important to pinpoint the fact that you actively participate in recovery to this day. Because one would look at your readings and think this is some good stuff, this person’s got it going on, they’ve got it figured out or they know a lot more than you know that I do. And what I so appreciate is the authenticity and integrity that, that speaks to who you are, that you’re a work in progress, and you’re always willing to stay in the work. Which gives probably so much more to what you write for everybody else.
Karen Casey 13:47
Yeah, I absolutely cannot imagine ever walking away from Al-Anon and AA. It is all about passing it on to others, but it’s also about continuing to keep my own journey fresh, and keep that willingness alive to continue learning.
Margaret 14:10
It’s important. You know, like they say, it’s not a destination, there’s no end in sight, we stay the course.
Karen Casey 14:15
Right.
Margaret 14:17
I think that’s important. I really do, Karen and I thank you for sharing that because I think that we unwittingly put people in categories or see them in certain lights. And I see you as a person who put service before a lot of other things, and that you see your writing as channeled from your higher power out.
Karen Casey 14:36
Right. Yeah. Yeah, I feel absolutely that there’s nothing about my life that’s been accidental. And that everything I’ve done in my life, I’ve been called to do. And I know that there’s more to come. There’s way more to come.
Margaret: I love that.
Karen: I got to tell you that One funny thing, oh Margaret, I did a book signing at Barnes and Noble in Edina at the Galleria a couple of weeks ago. And it was well attended, there were 75 or 80 people who came.
Margaret: Lovely.
Karen: And it was really in celebration of the 40th anniversary edition of this book. And so, after I talked, you know, for who knows how long, as you know, from just our experience here, I don’t have trouble talking.
Margaret: No. Which I appreciate.
Karen: But at any rate, I then said to the audience, I said, well, is there anybody that has any questions, and one woman who I had met when she came in, because I just kind of walked around and talked to people as they came in. And her name was Amy, and she raised her hand and I said, well, Amy, what do you want to know? And she said, well, I’m curious, does your husband read any of your books? (laughter) And I’ve never been asked that question before. And he, I hope he doesn’t mind by sharing this. But he’s on the same path that I’ve been on, and has been for 45 years. So anyway, I said, no, he’s ever read a book I’ve written. She said, oh, really, how does that feel that I said, well, you know, I feel like I say his journey is just different from mine. He’s committed to the journey, in the same way. He’s active in the program. But I said, his journey is just gone a little different route. And I said, he’s done other things with his life. And I said, actually, if I write an article for a magazine, or something, he might read it. I’ll say, would you like to read this? And he’ll read it? And I’ll say, yeah, hey, that’s great. But you need a comma here. And I said, he’s supportive of what I do, but no, he does not read my books. And, and she just kind of looked at me stunned, I think, and then, like a crowd laughed, like, well, we don’t all make exactly the same journey in life. But we all make the journey with the people we need to be making the journey with,
Margaret: Right?
Karen: And that’s what just I hold so dear to my heart.
Margaret: Do you have a favorite book?
Karen: That I’ve written? Well, actually, you know, that’s a really hard question to answer. Because anytime I pick up any one of them, I look at it. And I think, where did this come from? And how helpful this is to me. Because detachment is so crucial to my journey through life, not only as an active Al-Anon member, but just as a human being. I find great pleasure in reading this ‘Let Go Now.’
But one of the books that I read now every morning, and I don’t know if people find this strange that I would read my own books in the morning.
But, like I say, it feels like I was just this. I shared that they came from that companion I have on this journey. But every morning, I read from ‘Each Day, a Renewed Beginning,’ cause I find the messages in here, so calming. And like today, the quote was, for February one
“To show great love for God and our neighbor. We need not do great things.” By Mother Teresa.
And I go on to say “I love the simplicity of this idea of simply being kind and helpful to the next person we encounter is showing great love for God. I also remember hearing many years ago that Mother Teresa said, love everyone, and start with a person standing next to you. Our ability to do both of these things is unquestioned. But do we have the willingness?” And then it goes on.
But you know I need simple in my life. And I wrote this book during the quarantine when Joe and I were in Florida, unable for 32 years, we’d spend six months of the year there and the other six up here in Minnesota. And so, for that period of time for like 18 months, really we were in Florida and that’s when I wrote this book. And it gave me, to sit down and just let these messages come through, quieted me. And so, I continue to need that quiet, Margaret. I really do. And I think it’s partly age, I’m not who I used to be, in many ways because of being 83, and I have a lung condition that has changed my energy level pretty significantly. So, I need simple. And so, what I look for in any of my books now is what’s the simple message contained here?
Margaret 20:09
I really appreciated in what you read that it starts with the person next to you, because when I think about it, who are we the most short, with, the most reactive to the most difficult to be around. Our loved ones the people we adore and choose to be with seem to get the brunt of it when we can “perform”, elsewhere, but at home. So, I love that it’s the reverse. Like, let’s start right here in this unit.
Karen Casey 20:33
Right here, right now.
Margaret 20:35
Yeah. Well, I am truly thrilled we got to have this time together. It means a lot to me. And thank you for being a part of this with the audience. Is there anything you haven’t said you would want to say to family listeners? I mean, I think you said some beautiful things.
Karen Casey 20:49
Well, I guess the main thing that comes to my mind, Margaret is believe that the family you are a part of is the perfect family for you. For you to grow, and learn from one another.
I don’t think there are any accidental encounters no matter if they’re out in the world or in our home. We are where we need to be. When it’s with those people that we are with that we need to learn how to love and accept, them and ourselves. And to free each other to really be all we need to be because love doesn’t thrive when we’re held in bondage.
Margaret 21:45
Beautifully said.
Outro: This was a career highlight to be able to spend time in conversation with Karen Casey. I appreciated so much of what she shared and related to a lot of it. I hope you found it valuable too! I want to just reiterate that line that Karen left us with we need to learn how to love, and accept, and free each other to really be all we need to be because “love doesn’t thrive when we’re held in bondage.”
Thank you Karen Casey for all you’ve done for many of us in recovery, and I’m hoping through this episode some of you will seek out the incredible writing, and books that Karen has done for this world of people impacted by the disease of addiction.
Come back next week when we dive into a conversation about harm reduction, and alternative pathways to recovery, and meeting people where they’re at on their journey with Heather Tidwell.
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story.
Please find resources on my website.
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you!
