In this episode, we meet the remarkable recovery pioneer Karen Casey, best-selling author of ‘Each Day a New Beginning: Daily Meditations for Women,’ the first daily meditation book written expressly for recovering women.
Millions worldwide spend a few moments each day in quiet reflection, with Karen reading one of her 30 books.
Karen believes she was born an alcoholic codependent. Today, we explore why she felt this way as she shares her remarkable journey, and we learn her working definition of codependency.
It’s my honor to introduce you to Karen Casey!
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00:01
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Intro: Welcome back. It is beyond exciting for me today to welcome Karen Casey, the best-selling author of Each Day a New Beginning. Also referred to by many as the godmother of women in recovery!
During this episode Karen discusses always feeling like she came out of the womb as a codependent alcoholic and explores the reasons why she felt this way, including taking the wise suggestion of talking with the elders in her family and all that she gained from that brave experience.
Please meet Miss Karen Casey.
01:10
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
Margaret 01:28
I am truly humbled and honored to introduce today, my guest, Karen Casey. And I will add all the wonderful bio information. But I think the thing that I like to do with my guests, Karen is first of all, welcome you and say thank you for being with us. I know the audience that listens will gain so much from anything you share about your journey of your story and the great works of literature that you’ve written, that have helped so many. But how would you describe your qualifier? You know, what got you to actually engage in your own recovery? Where did that happen? I think that background would be really important for people to understand your journey.
Karen Casey 02:07
When I think back, you know, we talk about coming out of the womb as a codependent or an alcoholic, and I think I came out as a codependent alcoholic. And then I took that first drink at 13. And it eased that constant angst about where do I fit in this picture. And I look at my journey. And I tend to think this is true for all of us, I don’t know that everybody is in sync with this idea. But I think we all end up having the perfect journey for who we are.
And I ended up always on the search, this is really where my codependency comes in, even after that first drink, always on the search for somebody to be my other half. And in fact, for somebody to kind of embrace me, because I didn’t feel embraced in my family. And it was not that my family was a crazy alcoholic family. But my dad was, I grew to understand later in life, a very fearful man. So, he was always very angry. And so that was a family filled with tension. And I had two older sisters and a younger brother. And none of us turn to each other. You know, and I don’t know that that’s so unusual. For the period of time when I was born. I was born in ‘39. And during that period of time, you know, we’re in the Second World War,
Margaret: Right?
Karen: No family is probably embracing each other in the way that we think today is a healthy way to do because everybody was worried about whether or not they were going to be able to put margarine on the table. Not butter, this is back in the days when you know, we couldn’t afford butter.
Margaret: Right?
Karen: And so, the Oleo was white looked like lard. It always came with this little plastic thing filled with red orange stuff that you squeezed into the lard. And you squeezed it all together, so that it looked yellow.
Margaret: Wow
Karen: I remember saying to my when I grow up, I’m never going to eat margarine again. And in fact, I stuck to that.
At any rate, you know, it was not that my family wasn’t a loving family, but there were too many other concerns to be able to take time to express it. So, I look to boys, and then men, of course I chose one wrong man after another. And so, in my first marriage, which was a very alcoholic marriage, both Bill and I were extremely unhealthy alcoholics. I didn’t recognize it in me. I could see it in him. It’s oftentimes easier to see it in someone else. But after a tumultuous, 12-year marriage, he left for somebody else. And it was at that period of time that I just continued to replace him with other unhealthy alcoholics.
And I truly mean, I think that all of that journey was fortunate in its own way. But the fortunate thing was that one of those individuals ended up in treatment. And his counselor looked at me, and said, you know, you have all kinds of furrows in your forehead, and I know what that means. I was like, what you need Al-Anon. And I had no idea what Al-Anon was, I’d never heard of Al-Anon. And, I wanted to comply, because guess what I wanted to save that relationship. Because I did not. I mean, I was so codependent, I didn’t want to be without a relationship partner, because of what that would say about me.
So of course, I went to Al-Anon. And that was the turning point, truly for me. And that was in 1974. I walked into that meeting, and I didn’t know a soul of course, and it was men and women, and it was at the Unitarian Society on Mount Curve. And I live close by there. And I walked in there, and at that point, of course, I lots in my life had changed. working on my doctorate, I’d quit elementary teaching, but I had not quit drinking, of course.
But I walked into that meeting, and I looked around. And I thought, this is how I want to feel. Because it was a room full of men and women who were happy, joyful, you could just tell that they were embracing each other. And in so many ways, even though I didn’t know a soul, and I felt for the first time in a room of strangers, that it was okay to be there. And that I was one of them. That I was welcomed by them. And a really funny thing happened. I don’t know if you want to know all this?
Margaret 07:24
This is great. Your story means something because people will recognize your name, if they’ve been in the world of recovery. They’ll recognize your name as being a name that’s associated with a lot of great literature. Meditation books and things that you’ve written, which we’ll get into. But I don’t know that people know or think about what led to someone being that prolific in writing. So, your story paints that picture. You’re sharing your experience, strength and hope and also clinical wisdom and experience through your writing. What I do want to ask, though, before you go into the next part, because I know that you’re Al-Anon came before your recovery with AA, which was my story, also. I’m a recovering food addict. But I didn’t get into that until I had been an Al Anon and I was hurting bad enough still, to face my truth.
You mentioned codependency and alcoholism, probably out of the womb, that it was something within you. You obviously don’t blame your family, though speak to some of the challenges being in your family. Codependency gets a bad rap, as a label
Karen: It does.
Margaret: And I think before we go even further down stories, because we’re going to use the term a lot. What is your working definition of codependency what works for you to help other people understand it, to maybe take that sting out of it, but understand it a little better?
Karen Casey 08:48
Well, I kind of look at it from two angles, I look at codependency as coming to the realization that they look to others to define themselves. And I also think of codependency as feeling as though if you do not have somebody else in your life, then you’re not lovable. That your life is reliant on somebody else completing you. That alone, you just don’t measure up.
And I think that when I married Bill, my first husband, it wasn’t because I loved him. I didn’t even think about that. I married him because he asked me, I married him because I wanted to be wanted. And it was apparent to me that alcohol was an issue in his life. I certainly didn’t acknowledge that it was an issue in mine as well, but it had been for a long time. But I succeeded in having somebody want me and you know that it also fits into that, I don’t think codependency is necessarily the same thing for everybody. But for everybody. I think we let others define ourselves. And we try to control others’ behaviors, so they won’t reject us. You know, in that marriage, I did everything I could to really keep him in the marriage. And he wandered off anyway.
But I want to go back for just a moment.
Margaret: Sure
Karen: If I can Margaret to that Al-Anon meeting because this is so funny, actually. They sent me home from that first meeting with the book One Day at a Time in Al-Anon. I had never, ever seen a meditation book before. And I went home, and I read it from cover to cover, of course. And I thought, oh, I’ve got this, this is no big deal. You know, I can figure this out. And I went back that next week, and they said, well, how are you? And I said, oh, I’m just fine, because I finished the book.
But the thing about that, that I often think about, is, I don’t know how this will sound to our listeners. But it was kind of like God’s little joke. It’s like, okay, Karen, I’m going to introduce you to a meditation book, because guess what, it’s what I want to call you to do a little bit later in your own life.
I mean, when I think about that, the introduction to that, but I kept going to Al-Anon, I was kind of in and out of Al-Anon. But I was in and out of one unhealthy relationship after another. And that’s ultimately how I ended up in AA.
But you know, you said something that made me recall, an experience with my mother about coming out of the womb, as I said, as a codependent, alcoholic. And this, I think, is such a significant experience with my mother. You know, like so many of us. I don’t know that we grow up having great relationships with mothers as women. And my mother and I weren’t really at odds, there just wasn’t a closeness. But there wasn’t a closeness with anybody.
But with my mother, after I was sober, for a little over a year, I took Terry Williams, did you know Terry,
Margaret: I didn’t get the pleasure to meet him,
Karen: When he taught a class in family of origin. And it wasn’t part of the Hazelden package, but he volunteered at a program separate from Hazelden. And anyway, he taught this family of origin class, and in it, you were assigned to go talk to your ancestors, still living, your elders. And I talked to my mother, and dad. And this is really crucial, I think in the imprinting on my life. And I think that, that’s what happens to every member of every family, they are imprinted in some way.
Margaret: Sure.
Karen: My mother, I said, Tell me about your life. And she immediately started to just weep. And I was totally unprepared for that. And I held her. And I said, what’s the matter, mother? And she said, I never felt like a good wife, or a good mother. And I never wanted you when I was carrying you.
And she said, and that’s why I think you’re alcoholic. And I said, no mother, that has nothing to do with why I’m alcoholic. I said, my own wrong choices. But I said, that answered so many questions for me, Margaret, because of that codependent, abandonment feeling that I had been born with, because in fact, in the womb, I had been abandoned. And there was a history to that she had tough pregnancies with my older sisters. And the doctor said, don’t have any more children, Thelma, and my dad, of course, wanted a boy and so she was really unhappy in the pregnancy didn’t want me.
14:33
This podcast is made possible by listeners like you.
Bumper: Are you dreading the holidays or are you excited for the holidays? Are you just wondering how to navigate the holidays with the disease of addiction as a family member?
I have a resource for you. For the second time I will host four Complementary Embrace Family Recovery Coaching Groups. We will meet Wednesday November 15th, December 6th, and 20th, and January 3rd to learn, support, strategize and build a community together so that this holiday season can be more peaceful.
You will need to register to be a part of this complementary for part coaching series so please find the link in my show notes below
15:33
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast. Can you relate to what you’re hearing? Never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.
Karen Casey 15:43
I think that when we have the bigger picture of our lives within our families, it all begins to fit together as to who we become.
Margaret 15:56
The other piece, Karen is what an amazing gift you received and she received in that discussion.
Karen Casey 16:05
I tell you, Margaret, she could never, never, never have told my dad that. Because he wasn’t a physically brutal man. But emotionally, he could be very brutal. And he would have shamed her something terrible. So, she was relieved, I know by telling me, and it brought us so close together, it was like she had finally let go of the secret that had haunted her. And her secret was what answered so many of my own questions,
Margaret: Right,
Karen: it freed me. Her freedom also freed me to understand things that I would not have understood otherwise.
Margaret 16:52
And it comes down to taking a risk, being vulnerable, and communicating.
Karen Casey 16:58
And we have to make that we have to offer that opening to each other. And so, I’m so grateful that Terry Williams gave me the courage to do that. And, and then I talked to my dad, too. And guess what he said he had been afraid every day of his life, from the time he was six years old. And that answered it so much. And it was because of something that had happened in his family. And it just answered so much about the family dynamics,
Margaret: Right.
Karen: And, you know, the fact that we would sit at the supper table, that was back in the days when you didn’t have dinner, you had supper. We’d sit to supper table, and there would be all of this tension. I mean, everything was answered. Ultimately, when I looked back on it.
Margaret 17:56
You said in here a line that jumped out at me. And I don’t remember where exactly it was from, I think it was from a Codependency Meditation Book, but it was “I constantly watched the face of others to see if I was okay.”
Karen Casey 18:14
Right. Right.
Margaret: Oh, can I relate?
Karen: Oh, boy, I tell you. You know, in that first marriage with Bill because he was quick to anger because of alcohol. And I was always kind of walking on pins and needles. He wasn’t a violent man. But he was much like my dad in the sense that he was quick to rage. But we would go to a movie or something. And he would say, and he was working on his doctorate at the University of Minnesota, we had moved from Lafayette, my hometown, we met at Purdue, when we were there together and got married in our senior year. And three years later moved to Minnesota.
But at any rate, we go to a movie and then he would say, you know, what did you make of that? And honestly, Margaret, I would just wrack my brain to think what should I think of it? What is he thinking of it? Because I wanted to make sure I agreed with what he thought, and he always seemed to imply that although you’re, you know, no, you’re only a third-grade teacher, you know. And so, I would just always want to make sure that I tried at least to say something that would be approved of. You know, what a hell of a way to live.
Margaret: Painful,
Karen: Painful,
Margaret: Very painful.
Karen: And I think that that’s what the codependent so often lives with, you know, trying to figure out either how to fit In, or how to change that person, so that they are loving and kind or so that they don’t embarrass you, when you go out. It was just mind boggling. I was walking a tightrope all the time, as a codependent.
Margaret 20:20
What is astounding to me, and I have to believe it works this way, because of the work you’ve done in your recovery. Is to go from a person coming out of a movie with a primary partner worrying about what to say to be acceptable or respectable, or whatever the vision that you felt you wanted to receive from Him, goes to writing 30 books of their own words, and putting them in black and white, like, could we do anything more opposite of that experience?
Karen Casey 20:48
I know when I. And I look at that, too, and honestly, Margaret, it’s like, that’s how I know it was God. And, you know, when I came into recovery, that very first meeting, I went to, and it was May 24, 1976, in AA.
And again, I had been in couples counseling, there were six couples. But guess what, my partner never showed up once. There were six sessions, and each couple was to share in one session, you know, their own struggles and get feedback. Every week, of course, you can just imagine, as the classic codependent. Each week, I went in, with even a better excuse than the week before as to why my significant other couldn’t be there once again. Because it would look bad for me. You know. Obviously, he didn’t love me, I didn’t want them to realize, I mean, you know, I was trying to keep them from both judging him and judging me. So, I always have these great excuses. codependents have the greatest excuses in the world until they get help.
Margaret: Right.
Karen: And so, at any rate, that very last session, she’s finally said, Karen, I’m not so sure you’re in a relationship, which kind of stumped me. It’s like, well, because I kept thinking I was. And she said, you just tell us a little bit about your own journey.
And I began to share, and she stopped me. I hadn’t gotten very far into it. And she said, you know Karen. I’m thinking that what you really need at this point in your journey is Alcoholics Anonymous. It was like really, you know, it’s like, no kidding. I mean, true. I loved alcohol,
Margaret: Right.
Karen: I never stopped drinking, because I gone to Al-Anon. And I was a Jack Daniels daily drinker. And I loved alcohol. And I was one of those people who thought it was really cool that I could drink more than that big guy down there.
But I said, Because I, codependently wanted to comply, wanted to be approved of, I said, okay, I’ll go to AA. And so, she asked if there were some people in the group who would take me and, of course, there are always people who want to help others find the journey,
Margaret: Right.
Karen: And so that following Monday night, I showed up, and these people did meet me in fact, at St. Paul’s Episcopal Church by Lake of the Aisles. And I went in, and I kept thinking, what if they don’t show up? What if I go in or not. And about that time, they came, and I walked in, and actually, I didn’t see much of them after that. They just kind of ushered me in. And I looked around and I was dumbfounded because it was about 200 people. It was much like in 1974 when I’d gone to Al-Anon. You know, there were all these people, gorgeous people 30 and 40 years old, you know, hugging and smiling. And I thought, remember Parents Without Partners, that was an organization here in Minneapolis in the Twin Cities.
Margaret: I’ve heard of it.
Karen: And it was kind of setup for people who had kids, and they were trying to maybe meet other people.
Margaret: Sure.
Karen: So, a lot of people got re coupled in parents without partners. And I looked at this and I thought, oh, this is kind of like parents without partners. Look at all these good-looking men. This was where I should have been all along. And I wasn’t there for any of the right reasons,
Margaret: Right.
Karen: I just figured I don’t have to sit on a barstool. I can just come to a meeting like this. But the miracle is that the desire to take a drink? Immediately listed? And I never took another.
Margaret: Wow
Karen: And that wasn’t my intention and it happened anyway.
Margaret 25:16
Get your behind to the chair and the rest can happen.
Karen Casey 25:19
Right
Margaret: Yeah,
Karen: Right. I mean, it was just a miraculous kind of transformation.
Margaret 25:26
I really also can connect with what you just shared. I think it’s hopeful for families listening, you know, I went for all the wrong reasons and the miracle still happened. And they need to hear that because I think that we as family members who love someone with the disease, want the best for the person we love, and want to cajole and make them get there and hear it perfect. And do it the way we hope they’ll do it. And instead, if we can let go of that being our issue, our fear, our worries, and allow them the respect and dignity to find their path. Let’s see what can happen.
Karen Casey 25:59
Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think that I don’t know if other people think about their lives is kind of these little puzzle pieces that actually end up fitting together perfectly. But I do believe that. That is how I see it, I see it as a tapestry that I was weaving always. And the dark colors of the tapestry were growth periods. And you know, what, 83 I don’t know how many additional new bright colors I’ll be adding. But I know they’ll be the right ones.
And, you know, I look at my life and feel so grateful that I came out of the womb the way I did. And that it introduced me to a way of life that was more than I could ever have imagined. And you know, now, how did all this happen? How did thirty books happen? That happened because I mean it when I say that was God’s intention. I don’t really think of it as automatic writing. But I don’t know how my writing happens, Margaret. I just kind of sit down and it flows.
You know, when I was writing my dissertation before I started, my major professor, the director for my dissertation at the University of Minnesota was Mulford Sibley. I don’t know if that’s a name familiar to you or not. But he was the head of the political science department. My doctorate is in American Studies. And he was the head of the political science department and such a wonderful man, he was a Quaker. He was part of every peace movement that ever happened in the Twin Cities. And I met with him. And he said, well, the first thing we need to do Karen is take a look at your outline. And I said, well, you know, Mr. Sibley, I haven’t written an outline. I was teaching at the University at the time, I was teaching writing. I was teaching other students how to do outlines. Never did I do an outline in my life. And I said, you know, I don’t have an outline. And he said, oh, that’s interesting. He said, I don’t believe I’ve ever had a student writing a dissertation without an outline. But he said, if that works for you, it works for me. And, you know, I think back on that, if he had been any other kind of person, I’m not sure the rest would have rolled the way it did. And so again, I look at that, as the right person in the right place at the right time.
Margaret 28:48
Absolutely. And our job is to stay open to that.
Karen: Yeah,
Margaret: Whether we call it God, good, orderly direction, higher power, universe, nature. Our job on any aspect of this family illness is to stay open to the messengers to stay open to suggestions to take suggestions and try them. And that’s obvious in your story, Karen, a big part of how you got to where you were able to grow and heal in your recovery.
Karen Casey 29:13
The messengers are always there, always there for all of us. And sometimes the message isn’t all that pleasant.
Margaret: Yes,
Karen: You know, and when I look back at my early life, I hate the word victim, but I ended up experiencing sexual abuse when I was about 10. And there’s nothing about that, that’s pleasant.
Margaret: No.
Karen: But when I was much older, and got into counseling, to try to look at it from a different perspective. It was a miraculous turnaround. Because it is the very thing that deepened my awareness of forgiveness, and what forgiveness is really all about. And it changed me in ways I could not have imagined.
You know, in that counseling experience. And I share this with our listeners who have some of the maybe have had something similar. First of all, I want to say, talk to somebody about, because it’s just crucial to share with somebody else, so that they can maybe guide you on how to look at it differently. Because seeing something different ways is so important.
In any way, this counselor said, you need to sit down and just write out all of the feelings you have. And so, I was just, that was one of those things where I was just pounding the computer with all of my unresolved anger and everything, you know,
Margaret: Sure.
Karen: And I felt like, wow, I’ve gotten rid of all of that. Well, much to my surprise, it wasn’t over. It was probably four or five days later. And this was so unexpected. I ended up feeling that kind of call to sit down at the computer.
You know, I wasn’t thinking anything, I just found myself writing. And it was a letter, the previous one had been a letter too. This was a letter, dear Karen. And it was a letter that I don’t know from where it came. But it was a letter from him asking for forgiveness and telling me about his life. And he too, had been abused.
And as I was writing it. I mean, I was dumbfounded. You know, you don’t expect something like that at all. And at the end, he just said, please, please forgive me. And I printed it out. And I took it downstairs and showed Joe, my husband. And I said, what do you make of this? And he said, I think you can finally let it go. And so, what I really, I think I’m trying to say is, we still caught and trapped
Margaret: Yes,
Karen: by experiences from the past, that we finally have to figure out how to not, I use the word embrace, but I don’t mean embrace in a loving way, but embrace and say, yes, that happened. And now what? And figure out how to finally move on from it. And so, it really changed how I looked at how people come together, why people come together. And what there is to learn as the result of that coming together. Not every coming together is pleasant.
Margaret: No.
Karen: But every coming together has a lesson in it.
Margaret 33:12
And one we may wish we never had to go through I’m also a survivor. And I wish that never happened. And I don’t think that I truly appreciated how it formed my being in the world, until I did do work on it. And put some things to rest. And I think it’s important to say, and I’m guessing you would say this to Karen. Forgiveness is really for you not for them.
Karen: Right.
Margaret: I don’t think a lot of people think they think it’s all about letting them off the hook. And that’s not what you’re saying at all.
Karen Casey 33:42
No, no, it’s lightening my load. And I think that when we really are able to embrace that whole idea of forgiveness, it changes how we see everything around us. I mean, that clouded so much of my experience so it really,
Margaret: freed you.
Karen: It freed me it freed me.
Outro: Oh, what I love about talking to people who I have respected and admired in the profession of working with people with the disease of addiction.
Courage looks like different things to different people but for me Karen Casey’s courage to write 30 books to help others and share her truth is inspiring.
Come back next week when Karen will discuss the powerful realization she came to around attachment and the meaning of it and how it can affect your life and relationship with others in profound ways.
Margaret 34:36
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website.
This is Margaret swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you!
