In Dayna and Mazz’s final episode, they dive into their recovery journey. They share valuable tools they have incorporated, how they have embraced life and travel, and the role alcohol and non-alcoholic beverages play in their recovery.
This conversation is by no means a promotion of a person in recovery drinking non-alcoholic beverages or not. That is an individual decision between a recovering alcoholic and their sponsor. Mazz and Dayna are sharing their experience, strength, and hope.
You can learn more about Mazz & Dayna, a couple who beat many odds, through the links below.
#embracefamilyrecovery #recovery #addiction #addictionrecovery #addictionawareness #addictiontreatment #addictions #familyrecovery #familyrecoverycoach #familyrecoverycoaching #familyaddiction #familyaddictionrecovery #recoverysupport #recoverysupportgroup #recoverysupportservices #womenpodcaster #podcast #DaynaDelVal #MazzMarry #DailyDoseDrMaryyDD #addictionpodcast #recoverypodcast #recoverystories #recoverycommunity
See full transcript below.
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host Margaret Swift Thompson
Intro: Welcome back! Today in our final episode with Dayna and Mazz we discuss family healing. Please take a moment to revisit the photos chosen for this episode cover after you listen to them share.
Mazz and Dayna share such vivid, honest descriptions of how the disease of addiction changes the family dynamics. They share powerful examples of navigating recovery as a couple.
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast
We could probably talk for ages without difficulty, because I’m fascinated by your story. And I’m fascinated by the openness with which you both approach sharing your story. I love that. Because often you’ll hear one side or the other, but it’s rare to hear both be open about their story. You posted recently an image of I think, Dayna, you were in the middle, right?
Dayna: I was.
Margaret: Yeah. Why don’t you describe it.
So, it was our son’s 19th birthday, January of 2015. And so, two years before Mazz got sober.
Dayna: So, he’s standing. And I’m next to him. And then our son Quinn is on the other side of me. And Mazz is looking straight at the camera kind of in a weird superhero pose. And he looks physically terrible, because that happens to
Margaret: Puffy for sure
Dayna: Yeah, I mean, I used to tell him he looked like a waterbed because there was just fluid under him. So, he looks like that. I am looking solely at Quinn. I have my arms through Mazz and my hand around Quinn’s shoulder who’s quite a bit taller than I am. And I am looking up adoringly at Quinn, and Quinn is looking up to the sky like, oh, my gosh. I mean, it wasn’t a posed picture.
Dayna: but it was the picture taken before the posed everyone happy and smiling picture.
So, I had the privilege of seeing the picture of you at your birthday with your son.
Margaret: The three of you.
Margaret: Before I saw that post.
Oh, okay. Yeah. So, I just had a birthday three weeks ago, four weeks ago.
Dayna: And we were all together. Thank you. We were all together in England for my birthday.
And it’s a lovely picture of the three of you. You’re very present. There’s a comfortability in the facial expressions. There’s a joy in everyone’s face. A lovely picture. And I remember looking at anything, wow, what an amazing celebration honoring your birthday and having the people you love around you.
Margaret: Fast forward, then I see this picture of the three of you prior to Mazz getting sober. Yeah. Do you remember what your caption was underneath it?
It’s long, do you have it pulled up?
I do not, but the snippet of it?
Well, this snippet of it is in essence, that it’s no surprise that Mazz became an alcoholic, because this picture better represents the three of us pre his sobriety than any other picture taken of us in all the years that we were together, and it is because Mazz is allowed to be in this picture. But he’s clearly removed from the two of us. I am looking at Quinn with an almost hysterical adoration. And Quinn is almost overwhelmed at the intensity of my presence of him.
And how in the world could anybody live up to that. Our household was Quinn and me and Mazz. Always. I designed it that way, unconsciously. But the more that Mazz drank, the more I went with Quinn and the more I went with when the more Mazz drank, and we have often wondered, what came first? I don’t know. It doesn’t matter.
It doesn’t matter.
But the principal point of this marriage therapist was, our first meeting. He said to us, he drew a three-legged stool and he said there are three legs to many relationships. You your spouse, and gambling, drinking, sex, golfing, shopping, whatever it is. And when your third leg becomes the most important leg, you’re in trouble. So Mazz, what’s the third leg of your stool, and I looked over at him, we were sitting just like this, and he said, uh alcohol. And I didn’t think to myself, yeah, you jerk. But I did think yes, it is. And then this guy turned to me and he said and what’s yours? And I looked at him and I thought, what do you mean? What’s mine? And then it dawned on me, and I said, Quinn, Quinn is my third leg of the stool.
And the second, I said that out loud. That book ended, the journal, that shut the journal. Because what I realized was that I did not force whiskey down Mazz Marry’s throat,
Dayna: But I never made him. Important. I never prioritized him. I never made him equal. I never made him the other adult in the room, the house, the space the family, I allowed him to be with Quinn and me. And that picture is painful to me because had Mazz not almost died, I never would have been given the opportunity to right size, my relationship. Quinn will always be enormously important to me and enormously important to us. But he is not my husband.
Right? It also relieves him of a lot of pressure.
Yes. You would not see that picture taken of us today, because I don’t have that kind of
necessity to feel okay, from him.
Yes. Yeah, that’s a great extra point.
The other piece of it is the next picture, at your birthday does not represent any of that you’re equals, or at least, it’s a very different picture. And it’s interesting. Now I reflect on that visual. I again, have to say, Dayna, I admire so much your capacity to see your own growing edges. Because I saw it as what was between you and Mazz in that image, in my mind visually, was you’re still holding him.
Margaret: But there was a disease, a bottle getting bigger and bigger and bigger, pushing you away.
Yeah. And that would be true. I think from Mazz’s telling of the story. Or actually, I guess it’s more accurate to say that would be my telling of the story. Well, it’s the alcohol, that’s creating the problem. Mazz never said it to me, but could very fairly have said, No, it is your insanity around your child that’s creating the problem. He never ever intimated that; I don’t know that you even ever thought it
Dayna: But it is a fact. And this makes us very uncomfortable. Because Mazz was told in rehab, and it’s reconfirmed in AA that this is your problem, you are the alcoholic, you must take all of the responsibility. Nobody else bears any blame. And I do not believe that. Nor do I ascribe to it, I carry plenty of blame. And there are a number of other people I would be happy to point out and won’t who also get to carry a piece of how this happened.
Well, I stick to that because
You’re a kind human being.
What goes on in AA is supposed to stay there. But here’s some bottom line. I’ve met bitter people. And they’re going to be bitter, angry, sober alcoholics. Because they still blaming other people, I think, no, why put blame on it? It’s a disease. There’s no logic to anyone having a disease. People blame spouses. You know? So many people I know have said, well, I had to leave my wife because in my new thing of open honesty, I told them, sober, I don’t like you. And they certainly don’t blame them. Some people leave their wives because their wives drink, and they get angry. Because I’m only saying this from an AA meeting. I’m not saying it’s, it’s a men’s only meeting, I hear this mostly in. And they say, well, you know, I couldn’t be with them because they still drink, and I can’t and I feel bitter because they can still drink. Why are you feeling? They’re not the alcoholic? Why are you feeling bitter because someone can still sensibly consume an alcoholic beverage in front of you? I mean, why would you be annoyed about that?
Hmm. I believe that there are absolutely circumstances, relationships, traumas, events that trigger a person to go to that next level. I don’t believe that the disease is in someone because of those things.
I find it refreshing and wonderful that both of you are willing to look at your side of the street without making the other have to do it,Ugh or push you to do it. Right. So, to me, that’s the glory of recovery program. Because I look at my husband and I and my husband’s been with me 25 years is October. And I didn’t get into recovery from my food addiction until 2005. He’s live with someone who has an eating sugar, who’s weighed and measured food, who’s gone to restaurants and had to be very difficult. From my perspective, he doesn’t give a crap. Who’s tried to get him to order what I want, so I can live vicariously through him who’s had to navigate me go into meetings and inconvenience times.
But his work is whatever his work will be, if there is work to do. And if I spend my recovery time trying to figure out what he needs to do, I’m in deep doo doo. Which is to your point, Mazz, when they’re complaining about their partner using, you know, it’s like, I can’t diagnose my kids. I can’t diagnose my husband, a family, I don’t do it. It’s dangerous habit. What I have enough of on my own plate is my own stuff to keep in order.
And what’s cool about the two of you is you both seem to have that truth working for you. That you’ll take a look at your own stuff. You’ll keep working on your own stuff. Yes, stuff will come up between you but you have the capacity to look in the mirror both of you, which makes it easier to join as a couple, in recovery. And I think that’s awesome.
I do too.
I would never recommend this to anyone. This little story.
Ugh. This is a low point for me.
So, the night. I won’t if you
Dayna: Go ahead.
You mean, Dayna has made mistakes on this journey.
This is not even a mistake.
Dayna: No, it’s a huge mistake.
Margaret: We’re humans.
Mazz: We were going home. So, we got home, and Dayna cooked a meal, and we were tidying up. All of a sudden, she slammed something down on the countertop. She’s I can’t believe I can’t have a drink in front of you now, what the hell am I, what’s all this about? And
I went, okay, I see.
Can I just give a quick preface?
Dayna: I had been reading a book earlier in the day about a woman academic who came home from work and her husband was already home. And he was making dinner. And he opened a bottle of red wine and he poured her a glass and then they were sitting, having this great conversation. And I remember thinking, I cannot believe that that can never again, be my life. Which is so crazy, because alcohol is such not a thing in my life. I can go for months, and months, and months and drink nothing. But it was feeling like I no longer could, the option had been taken away. So that was in my head. And to be fair, I was nervous.
Mazz: Yeah, you were.
Dayna: Six and a half weeks away. I was, I was nervous to have him home. But anyways,
So, I said, all right, get your coat. So, there’s a lovely restaurant/wine bar across literally about 50 feet from our house. I said let’s go, let’s go to Luna and she’s what are you talking about? So well, here’s the thing, like, I’m gonna go with you. I’m gonna have a lemonade, you’re gonna have an alcoholic beverage. And we’re going to see right now this is going to play out. And if it all turns to crap, my bed, they probably haven’t given to anyone else. So, I could go back if. I wouldn’t recommend that to anyone. But we went across there. I had a lemonade. Dayna had a glass of wine. And it was fine. after that. I thought, you know what, I can do this. I can go out and have a meal with Dayna. She can have a glass of wine and she wants or not. And I can be around people drinking. And I think I’m going to be fine. And I found out that night that, that’s probably going to work for me. And it has. I wouldn’t recommend anyone do that the night you get out of rehab. But that’s what we did. And it worked.
The other piece of that is, I would say, I hope, maybe I’m wrong. That if you were having a night where you couldn’t do it. You also know you could say that too?
Dayna: Absolutely. Yeah.
Margaret: Because there are nights. I don’t know if you’ve had the Mazz, but there are nights where I’m just not up for being around a bunch of people eating my drug of choice.
I have found out one thing that’s interesting for me is I can go to a bar, you know, I wasn’t a really big beer drinker, but I actually can drink nonalcoholic beer. And I can go to a bar. And we have some at home where you can go out for Christmas, we were in England, and I was very happily drinking my nonalcoholic Beck’s and my friends were getting tipsy, lifelong friends. And I was looking around. And it was great, but I just thought I’ve been in a similar situation with someone who’s been incredibly intoxicated, and I really get nervous around someone who’s actually full-blown drunk around me. Not because I’m worried, I’m going to just join him.
Mazz: but I don’t know what the hell to do. Stone cold sober with someone who’s got that much drink in them.
Mazz: because when I was drinking, it didn’t matter.
I find it uncomfortable. When they’re that bad.
Dayna: Me to?
Margaret: And I would assume, again, correct me because I’m not you and I’m not an alcoholic there by the grace of my higher power. But I would assume I’d be like damn is that what I look like, is that how I acted? Hmm,
Hmm, maybe that’s an interesting point.
There was an alcoholic we met waiting for my brother-in-law at a train station in England. Really?
Yeah, he was a very stereotypical alcoholic. And those, those instances do really bother you because it is that moment of wow, I was on the precipice of this because your education can’t save you, your salary can’t save you, nothing can save you from this disease. You just continue to fall, or you don’t.
Or you engage in recovery and get well.
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Margaret: So, I want to fast forward to what I think is one of the coolest things that I know about you. And I don’t know a lot about you. But some of the things that you’ve started in recovery, one, in particular, that I think is the coolest thing is this traveling with you, to Europe, sober. Like that is daunting for some people the idea of traveling at all and enjoying it and doing it sober. So, tell people about your new adventures, because I just think is groovy, cool, awesome.
So, Mazz came out of rehab in the middle of March. And he had a conference coming up that June in Hawaii, that we had been planning to go to we also had been planning to go to Ireland in March, and that obviously had to be put off.
But as we got closer to June, he started to get edgy about talking about this trip. And I finally said to him, what’s the matter? And he said, I am really nervous about flying that distance without drinking. Because when Mazz and I used to go to England or on long flights, he wouldn’t just drink his drinks. He’d drink mine too. And it would be this whole thing. He’d be like, you don’t want your wine, right? Because I’m going to have your wine, you don’t care about your wine, right? So, I’m gonna have your wine. And it was this whole long, like, we were planning how much he was going to drink. And it was going to be his and mine. And so okay, so he told me he was nervous about this. And I said to him, based on things he had been telling me, he’d been learning in AA I said, well, maybe we just need to come up with some plans. Like, you know, what’s Plan A, B, C, D, what happens if you get on the plane and you panic, and okay, so we came up with all these plans. And the trip went really well.
And then we were going back to England for the first time since he’d been sober, that September. And he said to me, again, I am really nervous about going back to England, and pub culture. Like, I don’t want to say to you, well, we can’t go into any pubs, because that’s really to deny the experience of England, but I’m nervous.
And I said, okay, let’s come up with our plans. So, we had all these plans and backup plans, and we got there. And what’s so incredible about England and Ireland, specifically is that they both have really adopted a non-alcoholic culture inside their drinking culture. So, there’s multiple kinds of non-alcoholic beer, there’s multiple kinds of cocktails that are mocktails. And like, I’ve not had anybody look at us twice about ordering something that is not alcoholic, in a pub in England or Ireland. Okay, so when we were there this Christmas, I said to him, maybe this is the thing. People already know us because of Daily Dose. I mean, you say you don’t know that much about us. That’s hardly true, Margaret, because everybody knows everything about us pretty much.
You are kind of open books. But yes.
You know what, I appreciated you pretending like we hadn’t told you everything. But people know us. They know the journey we’ve been on. They know that I sometimes drink, they know that Mazz doesn’t at all. They know that he’s comfortable with non-alcoholic drinks. They know all these things. And that we have been really open and honest, as we have explored all these different steps. We’d know a bunch of people who say, well, I don’t drink anything. And a because it’s too close, it would be too easy for me to move from one to the other. Okay, great. But we have this whole documented journey. And if you’ve been to England, or Ireland or the United Kingdom, you know that driving over there is really hard as an American. So, like Mazz could do all the driving. We could go to pubs every day, and you could be on a plane with us. So that if you got panicky as the alcohol cart was coming towards you, here’s a person who can say, hey, remember, we worked through some plans? Let’s work the plans.
And in my own work, do this work around sort of recovering who you wanted to be at a previous time in life and life has maybe just banged you up a little bit and so you’ve forgotten it.
It’s called ‘Rediscover Your Spark.”
Well, I’m in the process of adapting that to be ‘Rediscover Your Sober Spark’ and it can be done as an individual who’s now in sobriety or as a couple because the thing that we had to really do was figure out, who are we now, that this is not a piece of our lives, we had to rebuild that. And so, you would do some of that work. And we would stay in a house together. And we would just, it’s this whole opportunity to go to have a real experience that’s safe, because it is scary. I was afraid. I mean, what was I going to do if we got there? And he went crazy and ordered a whiskey sour, and then another and another, what was I going to do?
Dayna: So, it’s not just the person in recovery, it’s the couple, the family, the community. And that’s what we really want to do is create some opportunities for people to have these joyful, intentional, emotional, vulnerable, safe trips. And to realize that this is not shut off to you now, because you’re not drinking, you know, a 10-year-old cab or incredible whiskey or whatever. That is not, those doors don’t have to be shut to you.
Well and any alcoholic who’s in recovery knows that that wonderful whiskey is never going to stay one whiskey, if I try that. Will it include meetings, trying out meetings in different areas?
We have talked about that. And we think it absolutely can.
Mazz: Should do.
That would be fun. You know, to go around the world. I mean, one of my favorite things when I travel is to go to a meeting and see that they’re similar wherever I am. And feel like I have a home away from home wherever I am.
That’s gonna be an interesting part of it. And it’s one of the things, so the first time we went to Ireland, so it’s like our third trip when I was sober. I say today, well, this one’s going to be different it’s Ireland. So we went into the bar, and I thought, do you have any non-alcoholic beers and the guy said, take your pick, and it was like 20 different types.
Dayna: It was incredible.
Mazz: I looked around. And actually, the young kids in Ireland have stopped drinking, they are drinking non-alcoholic beers. There’s non-alcoholic Guinness, which tastes like, weirdly exactly the same. I had one I kept thinking, I didn’t actually enjoy it because it was too
Mazz: It was too Guinnessy. But then we talked to someone on our Daily Dose Show who was complaining her husband uses the excuse that he’s Irish. And I just thought, you know, I’ve just come back from a country that’s embracing not drinking. Your full of S***.
I want to make sure, and I will make sure with the podcast going out, we put information about how to connect with you about this, because I do think it’s phenomenal. To have fun to have opportunities to realize life doesn’t close down. Because all we ever hear about is, alcohol is everywhere. We can’t do things. And that’s not true. I just read an article two days ago, about the Packers creating a whole yellow zone at packers for sober.
Mazz: Oh, they did that here
Margaret: and recovery. And they actually have a support table down in the open area for tailgaters, where you can go and get a chip for one game at a time sober and like just hang out with people. And I think it’s amazing.
Yeah. NDSU, North Dakota State University in the fall go down. And there’s a section for tailgating games for AA members.
Yeah, that’d be important to normal. It is normalized, non-alcoholic drinking. It’s just imperative.
And that we can socialize. And we can do things and we can travel and have fun.
Margaret: So, I’m excited about that.
Even during the World Cup, the Soccer World Cup, they’re putting non-alcoholic beer ads in it.
Dayna: Yeah. It’s amazing.
Mazz: If you watch the grand, the only two things I watch on TV, the sports I watch on TV is the English soccer league, and the Grand Prix, and even in the Grand Prix is the advertising is all for non-alcoholic beer.
Which makes sense for a car race.
Yeah, but it used to be hard. You know, they used to make, like, hard liquor sexy. They don’t do that anymore.
Dayna: Not as much.
Mazz: Not as much.
Yeah, I hope to believe there’s a tide of change coming.
Well, there has to be. If COVID revealed anything, it’s that people who were on the edge, many of them fell off the edge. I mean, Mazz and I talked a lot during COVID about what that would have been like, I mean, he would have drunk himself to death had he not already died because he drank at home. And that’s where everybody was. So COVID, I think, revealed the true gravity of our addiction situation. And we just have to figure this out. We just have to,
There’s this treatment center in Fargo that has a coffee shop next to it. It’s called Soul Solutions. And recovering addicts, actually, man the coffee shops. We were in there, and this guy says where are you from? You’re not from here. Originally. I said,
Dayna: Laid out your story.
Mazz: Laid out my story. And I said, well, I mean, I’m over. I’m five years sober. And the guy behind the bar asked me what I did. So, when I told him I was a biology professor and he goes, well, how long have you been doing that? I said, this is my 17 years. How long have you been sober? At the time it was like five and a half years. And Dayna pointed out to me, I saw an expression change in his face, but I never put the connection together. He said that guys just in awe of the fact that you kept this job. And now you’re doing it better because you’re sober. But there was a guy sitting down, he shook my hand, and he gave me one of them, it was an addict’s challenge coin. It was from Gambling Anonymous. He said, I want you to have this, this is explains my addiction. And on the flip side of it, it says, Congratulations, no bet in 10 minutes.
Yeah. And I just thought I get the month and a year. And this dude’s got a 10-minute thing he gave to me, saying, hope you understand my addiction. I thought, Oh, my God.
We have a lot of work to do. And we have a lot of change happening. I just spoke with a gentleman named Harry Levant, who is, that as his passion, he’s a recovering gambling addict. And he’s just passionate to make the change.
Because you talked about ads, I was just brought on to the reality of the gambling ads, because I never pay attention. I don’t watch sports. So, he’s challenged all my listeners to watch the Superbowl with a different lens of how much free bet gambling ads there are to get you hooked. So yeah, you know, it’s out there. If we look at the big picture, we never make it, I don’t think but if we tackle it a day at a time, and we face our demons, and we offer service to those who have whatever they have. And you two really have done that you’ve opened venue for talking frankly, you’ve offered people a platform to share their story wherever they came from on this journey. And now moving it into traveling, sober excursions, and having fun, and finding that joy. Last thought you would want to share if you haven’t shared it about your own journey that you would like to give out as a message to anyone who’s pondering, or struggling, or considering.
I’ll go first, so you can wrap it up. I believed when Mazz was drinking, wrongly, that I was the only woman whose husband was drinking to this extent and that I could not tell anyone because nobody would understand. I would be judged, he would be judged, I could never reveal it to anyone because nobody would have any idea what I was talking about.
And then we got honest, and open about it. And the floodgates poured down on us with people saying, oh, my gosh, me too. Thank you. Thank you, thank you for telling this because, me too.
And I realized that the substance that is taking your person or taking you is terrible. But I think the isolation is worse. I think that fear of shame and judgment is so profound. So, if you are listening to this program, and you are living with it to whatever extent you are, I cannot say enough that you are not alone. You are not unique. And that is a really beautiful thing, to know that you are not the person who’s living this terrible thing. You are in a community of extraordinary people who will help you if you simply are willing to get honest and ask for it. And we are part of that community. So, if there is something we can do, if you want to start with us, start with us.
Margaret: Thank you. Dayna
Yeah, I got a similar message. So, the first weekend I was in rehab on a Saturday they took you to the big men’s only meeting in town.
So, this was a Saturday that Thursday, I went into rehab. I went to my first AA meeting the next day, a Friday. I got my 24-hour chip. Then it was the first time in front of people I said I am an alcoholic. The next day I went to this Lutheran Church in town, AA meeting eight o’clock in the morning all men’s meeting a couple of 100 men in this room and that’s when I knew, I wasn’t going to be facing this alone, and you’re not.
There’s so many people around that can help you. You feel desperate. You do feel alone. It’s easy to say don’t, but I’m saying don’t from someone who felt like that. and you’re not alone. You can’t be, there’s got to be 100 different meetings in this town, you find the one you’re like, there are ones that are more religious than others. There’s one specifically for transgendered people. Or I was actually looking at AA meetings and see how they’re going now which ones are opening up again since COVID. There’s one now for people on the spectrum who are alcoholics.
There is just so much help out there. So do not feel alone. Don’t feel ashamed. Talk to someone. You know, I’ve only seen this happen twice when someone would walk into an AA meeting and say, I need help. And I just think God on you, you know, I, I came in the traditional way via a coma. And you’ve got the, the guts to just walk in and say, you know what, there’s something wrong with me and I need some help.
Mazz: The courage to do that is astounding.
and the courage to come back if relapse has taken place.
I’ve seen that too. And that’s courage there too.
And you’ll be welcome back without judgment, if that is your story, if relapse has happened, go back. If anyone can understand that, we can.
There is loads of these little phrases that you think, oh my god, what a load of. But until you live them, you don’t really know what they actually mean. You know, like, there’s things like, fall down seven times get up eight. A line from the Shawshank Redemption has a new shiny meaning for me, get busy living or get busy dying. That’s absolutely right. That’s it.
Well, thank you. It was a pleasure. I knew it would be.
Mazz: It was fantastic.
Thank you. It was really a gift. A gift to be on this side of the conversation.
It’s fun to be on the other side.
Mazz: You make people very relaxed.
Margaret: I think it’s also the hope is that you will keep doing it on this side. Even though your platform of having people on, you’re not doing. I hope you’ll keep sharing your message because I think that really helps with lowering the stigma around the illness and helping people see the hope, and your story can be their story.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Outro: Mazz and Dayna, I thank you for being a couple who’s living their recovery out loud and helping show us all that we can heal and learn to play in recovery. With help and working hard to rebuild trust and communicate they show the possibility of thriving even when this disease has hurt us in our couple-ship and family.
Travel in recovery was a big trigger for me at times. Mazz and Dayna offered such good tools to enjoy travel again.
Come back next week when we will meet Sheila a mother, a nurse who shares the impact of the disease of addiction throughout her life.
I want to thank my guests for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story.
Please find resources on my website,
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you!