In this final episode with Kelley and Ryan Kitley, we discuss navigating recovery with children and the impact of role modeling for our children. We talk about the selfish nature of addiction and how healing can feel selfish in similar ways. This episode ends with a delightful story about the production team and this brave couple’s hope for the future of their movie, ‘Gray Area.’
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See full transcript below.
00:01
You’re listening to The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Intro: Welcome back. This is the final conversation with Kelley and Ryan Kitley. We are very aware that addiction is a family disease and with Kelley’s experience with problematic drinking and choosing to engage in sobriety leads us to talking about how they discussed all of this and shared it with their children. We also discuss in this episode the selfish nature of the disease and recovery and how that impacts both parties in a couple. Let’s rejoin Kelley and Ryan.
01:43
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast
Margaret 02:00
To your point of family, your four beautiful children who were 11 months up when you started this journey are now?
Kelley 02:08
6,14, 12, and 10.
Margaret 02:13
How have they been taught about it? Has it been common language? Like how have you navigated with the kids? Because that’s a big part of this. A lot of families will say, oh, my kids weren’t affected, which I challenge. How’d you cope with the kids?
Kelley 02:30
You know I mean; we have kids who are in high school. And you know, the way I grew up was like, alcohol was bad. And I better be careful because it could ruin my life. And there was no like education around it, it was just like a bad thing. And my mom in the height of her drinking would project a lot of her stuff on to me when I was in high school. And so we’ve had really open conversations with our kids just about prevention, and experimentation, and how one person can drink and another person chooses not to, and how it affects us differently.
From my first year of sobriety, like they made me a card, and we, you know, celebrate it, whether I buy myself a cake, or they buy it, you know, as something that feels really good. And I know there are a lot of clients I work with who don’t want their kids to know that they’re in recovery. For me, I needed a role model when I was younger, and so to be able to provide that for them, that like you don’t have to drink or that there are people yeah, that don’t drink.
Margaret 03:41
Well you’re role modeling that Kelley, but you’re also role modeling as a couple that you can navigate tough things. That you can love each other through challenges. You’re role modeling, that if somebody does have struggles with alcohol, there’s a way out. I mean, you’re not just role modeling, it’s okay to not drink.
Kelley: Yeah.
Margaret: That’s a huge message to give your children what a gift to see a mom and dad who have different relationships with alcohol, have respect and mutual agreement on life and communicate, follow passions, and also when there is a problem support each other through that problem.
Kelley 04:16
Yeah, well, thank you for saying that. I forget about that.
Margaret: It’s true.
Kelley: Again, going back to how it impacts the whole family, whether in an addiction or in recovery.
Margaret 04:28
And I always say this to families, because there’s a lot of shame around the kids. That’s a big trigger point, especially for mothers, there’s a lot of stigma still attached to mothers with a problem. Which I wish we would get over. But the reality is, I always say addiction imprints on our children. We can’t take that away. I mean, my kids were affected by my addiction. My recovery has also greatly imprinted on my children. And that’s my job. I can’t change what I had in the past. But by God, I can work my program going forward so that my kids see a healthier mom and a mom who’s willing to get help, and a mom who has resources to help them, be a healthier mom for them. And that’s what you’re doing.
You mentioned selfish somebody did earlier. And I just think this is important to touch on it, because I think a lot of family members feel this way.
So, prior to recovery, there’s a selfish nature of the disease. My experience when I was in it was it was all I thought about, I might have been with people, but I was always thinking about when and how, and how can I hide it? How can I get enough. And when I started going to meetings, I felt selfish. Like, here I go, again, off to doing stuff that I need to do, leaving my husband to take care of the kids. And you’ve touched on that being a part of it. But the other piece of it is that and I would love your input, the selfish in recovery, I would call self care rather than selfish. Like the work that you’ve done has clearly been articulated in this conversation, Kelley, that Ryan feels the benefit in the family, in the marriage that even though it was hard in early recovery, because you were going and you were doing all this work, it’s brought him his partner in a different way, his co parent in a different way. So would you agree, Ryan, that even though it felt selfish, prior to you recovery, and also maybe an early recovery, that it’s changed?
Ryan 06:27
Yes. 100%
Margaret 06:29
Did it feel selfish in early recovery when she would go off to meetings?
Ryan 06:32
That Kelley was being selfish?
Margaret: Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah
Margaret 06:35
Yeah. Like she was gone already before in a different way. Now she’s gone in another way. And it also was so different than the norm you used to have?
Ryan 06:45
Yeah, yeah. Because it was like, before that we were drinking buddies. And there was, well, I’m gonna stop drinking. And now I need to take all this time to take care of myself. And I’m gonna go to retreats. And I’m like that. I was like, Wait, what?
Margaret: Yeah.
Ryan: I lose my drinking buddy, and I lose somebody to help me take care of the kids. No. (laughter)
Margaret: No, that’s fair.
Ryan: Like Kelley’s gone for like months.
Margaret 07:10
No but Ryan, I don’t hear you saying that. But what you’re speaking to is the truth so many people out there are struggling with right now. Yeah, my person’s back. Yay. But now they’re gone. And like, how do I navigate being the responsible one when I’m tired of being the one maybe having to be responsible more than? It’s okay. We’re human. Right. Like, it’s tough. It’s an adjustment.
Ryan 07:32
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man is bringing up a lot of stuff.
Kelley: Like a therapy session, I feel like (laughter).
Margaret 07:39
Yeah, well, that’s not what I’m sorry, if that bothers you know, that’s not what it is meant to be. But I think it speaks to what families are going through in early recovery.
Ryan 07:47
Yeah, yeah. It’s definitely an adjustment. And, you know, the bigger picture is, this is for the best. We were both reminding ourselves of that.
Margaret 07:58
Well you offer hope to families that are just starting the journey? You really do you both offer so much hope that there are bumps in the road? There are challenges but that it is far better than it was? Even though there’s a grieving my words, there’s a grieving Ryan, you had to go through of losing your drinking, buddy?
Ryan: Yeah.
Margaret: And I don’t think that’s something to be ashamed of, like, I was always seeking people to do my addiction with that would make me feel less of a problem. Did you have that experience Kelley, like you’re looking for people to be around so made it feel less problematic?
Kelley: Yes, absolutely.
Margaret: Right. So then when we switch into recovery, that person may not be the person we would choose to be with. So we go through a grieving process to like, there’s grief in this recovery journey.
Kelley 08:47
Absolutely. And for the better, but also, like, we didn’t know what else to do together.
Margaret: Correct.
Kelley: You know, it would be like, oh, let’s go see a movie. Let’s, bowl, let’s find a show, we both like. You know, anytime we would get a babysitter, even when the kids were young, we’d go to a bar.
Margaret: Right,
Kelley: You know, be there for hours. And we did with most of the time we had fun. Unless you were carrying me home and it didn’t turn out well. But we had to rethink like how we spent time together.
Margaret: The new normal.
Kelley: Yeah.
Margaret 09:23
I hate that word. But that’s kind of what it feels like, right?
09:26
This podcast is made possible by listeners like you.
Bumper: Hello everybody we are in recovery month. September that is about recovery, and I am so excited to be back and airing new episodes of The Embraced Family Recovery Podcast.
I want to let you know about a really neat organization called Mobilize Recovery. I will have their links attached to my show notes.
Throughout this month they are offering incredible opportunities to gather and be connected with one another in recovery, and about putting recovery out there rather than just hearing about the trauma and devastation of the disease. Let’s talk about the hope and the power of recovery. If you have a desire to do that reach out to me that margaret@nullembracefamilyrecovery.com
I would love to put out messages on social media of hope of family recovery. If you’d like to send me a quote, you don’t even have to say your name. Just send it out, it can be anonymous, and I’ll add them to my social media platform so we put a face, and a voice to family recovery.
10:00
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Margaret 11:02
I just love that there are people out there who are willing to share the truth of the journey. We see a lot of the truth of the journey before recovery. Right? If there’s movies out there, there’s TV portrayals, there’s a lot of showing the impact of problematic use, we don’t see a lot of images of recovery, we don’t see a lot of the challenge of what getting into recovery looks like in a partnership.
Kelley 11:32
Which is why we want to continue our movie, you know, the movie Gray Area ends with her asking for help. But we don’t see how she gets the help and what that like and that is so important.
Margaret 11:44
It is, well on you to talking about it as it might be different and weird to do it together. And I’m so grateful you did it together with me. But that helps people because even though it’s kind of clunky at times, and it’s not comfortable to talk about at times, and there are things that come back up. To your credit, you guys stuck to it. You know, you’ve navigated this. And I don’t think it’s an easy navigation. Recovery is much easier than being in the disease, I think that’s my experience. But recovery also is uncomfortable. And we’re not going to go here because it would turn into a therapy session. But let’s not even talk about intimacy and sobriety and how that changes life with, me and my trauma history. I didn’t realize that my addiction was keeping me numb from the neck down. So that made it kind of weird when it got to be sober time sex, right? So like, the reality is, is there’s so many aspects of recovery that are requiring communication, grace with each other and yourselves, ourselves. And also a willingness to be patient and understanding when sometimes it just feels like gosh, darn it, can it be easy? And life isn’t easy. We know that. Anything you haven’t touched on that you want to touch on? We’ve kind of gone to different places. But is there anything either of you feels important? Knowing the audience is people out there who love someone with the disease generally, I mean, there’s other people to listening, and people in recovery at different points. Is there anything you’d want to share?
Ryan 13:12
This is a little off topic of what you’re talking about. But I would love to just mention our producers on the film. Adria and David.
Margaret 13:20
No, we can tie that in. So let’s do a little bit on the film. You talked a little bit about wanting to go further with it. You talked about it happening COVID I’ve had the privilege of seeing it. I highly recommend people see it. Do you want to talk a little bit about how it came to be and what your goals and dreams are poured and who was a part of it.
Kelley: Yeah, you brought it up. Go Ahead
Ryan 13:39
Yeah. So actor friend of mine Adria Dawn and her husband who is a director, David Tarleton. I mentioned that to Kelley that, you know, they produce educational films. And she wanted to bring the script over to them to get their input. And by the end of the night, we decided that we wanted them to adapt Kelley’s book into a script. And they were really excited. And from then we moved forward. So, it was interesting in that it was, you know, to husband and wife, teams. I believe both David Adria, and our lead Megan McDonough. And I don’t know if they’d feel comfortable with me saying this.
Kelley: They do, they are public about it.
Ryan: Since we shot the film, they have all become sober. And I kind of love that story.
Margaret: That’s amazing.
Ryan: Yeah. So I just wanted to recognize our production team and Adria, wrote and directed and they team directed the movie. Both Adrian and David.
Kelley 14:45
A husband and wife in our community, and we raised the money to make the film in the community.
Margaret: Wow.
Ryan 14:51
Kelley raised the money. I’ve never seen anybody work so hard on a goal. She raised a lot of money. All on her own. And it was pretty impressive because it costs a lot to make even a short film like the one we made.
Kelley 15:08
Yeah, a movie like this has not been made in over 20 years since when a man loves a woman. And that is our goal is, or my goal. Ryan’s like, I don’t need to play myself if this gets picked up, you know, in a series or a feature, because I use it to showcase in speaking engagements, because I think a visual tool is so impactful. And everybody says to me, like, I want more, how can we get more, we want to hear the rest of her story. And I’m like, well, that cost a couple million dollars to do so. So that is the next.
Margaret 15:44
So if you would have manifest in the universe, the dream of this movie, put it out there, you never know. I mean, I’m not saying my audience would be the place, but manifest what you would like to happen as a result of this movie. I think what you’ve done with it, to educate and bring knowledge, and use as a visual is phenomenal. But I hear you have bigger hopes. So what would it be?
Kelley 16:05
It would be to make a series with a well known actor or husband and wife acting duo. Just because the platform and the ability for well known actors to spread such a message is really impactful. So, you know, like a Netflix series, or Showtime series or something like that.
Ryan: I think I could continue.
Kelley: You could do it if it was picked up.
Ryan 16:32
If I saw a paycheck and have to go to set every day. I think I could, you know.
Margaret: You could muster through,
Ryan: I could muster up the courage to play myself.
Margaret 16:41
Yeah, good for you go for that. But the other piece that I would say, though, to the point of somebody who said to I want to see more, would you like to see it go into the recovery component?
Kelley 16:52
Would I like to see it? Absolutely. As people recognize, like the first part, maybe they get there, but then, you know, I think too, even for women, how much community has changed, too. And all the opportunities of support. I mean, even online, you know, when, for me 10 years ago, it felt like AA was the only option. And I was glad I had somewhere to go. There are a lot of other opportunities now that I want. And it’s not just about the meetings, it’s about the spirituality, it’s about the self care, it’s about moving your body. It’s about nutrition. You know, it’s all of those things. And so it’s not just hey, I decided to stop drinking. Oh, wow. And living this great life without alcohol. No, it’s fucking work. And it pays off.
Margaret 17:44
It does. It does, but it is work.
Kelley: Yeah.
Margaret: So, I probably should have asked this in the very beginning, I just realized that because of the ‘Gray Area,’ do you class yourself as an alcoholic? And does it matter?
Kelley 17:58
I did initially because I felt like until I admitted that, I wasn’t willing to get the help that I needed. As I’ve had more years of sobriety I find myself not really feeling like I need a label. And the reason we chose ‘Gray Area’ was because we wanted people to be able to see their self in the film. And if it was called, you know, the female, alcoholic or whatever.
Margaret 18:30
So, you wanted it to appeal to people who may be sober curious, maybe questioning may not have a label that they identify with?
Kelley 18:39
Correct? Correct. Here is a story about a woman who struggled with alcohol and how it impacted her life. That’s it.
Margaret 18:46
And so whether you call yourself whatever you call yourself, what I hear you saying is there’s support and resources for anyone, wherever you are on the journey. And the main thing is if you identify wanting help, it’s out there, and you want people to find it.
Kelley: Yes, yes.
Margaret: I think it’s important. And I agree with you. It’s one of the things that has changed in my introduction of my career. I was in Minnesota model 12 Step, abstinence only and I believe that because it saved me, my recovery is 12 Step. And I mean, She Recovers and I witnessed people who find their way to feeling well, in a variety of different ways of getting there. And to me, that’s the answer, right? We want people healthy, and well, whatever way they get there.
Kelley: Absolutely.
Margaret: I am so grateful for this morning, guys. I can’t even tell you. I’m Ryan, it tickled me so much that you came on. I appreciate it. I’m so grateful. Do you want to plug anything you’re going to be in in the near future? Because your acting list is quite impressive. Is there anything coming up? You want to share?
Ryan 19:45
I really appreciate that. I am a full time auditioner. I’ve been auditioning my butt off. And I’m directing a show at the theater School at DePaul
Margaret 19:56
in Chicago. Is that in Chicago?
Ryan: Yes.
Margaret: Okay.
Ryan: So, as of now, I have nothing on the horizon.
Margaret: Okay.
Ryan: But yeah, that phone could ring any minute.
Margaret 20:07
I hope it will for you because it’s obviously something you love doing. And I would think, you know, that could be a whole nother discussion on how it is to have to put yourself out there for possible rejection every time you want a job. I cannot imagine doing that.
Ryan: Well, I appreciate it. Thank you.
Margaret: Your tenacity to keep after it I respect and your work in ‘Gray Area’ was profound. I think it made it more profound that it was your true story. And then you’re acting in that way, reliving it again. Hats off, I don’t know how you did it.
Ryan 20:40
Well, thank you. I really appreciate it.
Margaret 20:41
And Kelley to you also for being willing to put that out there. I felt connected to you in a way just watching it, as I’m sure was the intention of putting your movie out there that women would sit in the audience and be wow, she has the guts to put out what I may have lived through what I have experienced. And I thank you for that. Because I do think you open a door for people to start exploring their own journey. Be willing to say that I’m not a bad person. I’m a person who has not been well and deserves help. Anything we can do to get that out there for women is important because shame is a killer.
Kelley 21:21
Absolutely. It’s easier to show the film to people we don’t know then our friends and family.
Margaret 21:26
I’m sure
Kelley: Is what I’ve found.
Margaret: I’m sure.
Kelley 21:30
but they’ve all seen so it’s the band aid has been ripped off.
Margaret 21:34
Yeah. Well, I think the thing that makes this an uncomfortable piece too is that when we show our truth to those who may be struggling, thinking, wondering, may have played a part in obviously no mal intent intended then that brings up all their own emotions and if they don’t look at that that’s going to be painful for them. It’s a family disease no doubt about it.
Outro: I cannot begin to express my gratitude for Kelley and Ryan Kitley for being guests on the podcast. It goes much further than that. I absolutely respect their courage and willingness to share their story and produce their powerful movie ‘Gray Area’ where Ryan courageously plays himself in the recreation of their story. This took such guts on both of their parts. Sharing their message will inspire so many to look at their own relationship with alcohol and how it impacts their family.
Come back next week for another courageous and inspiring guest Mary Beth O’Connell a retired judge in long term recovery who wrote her memoir and shares with us more of her powerful story.
I want to thank my guests for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you.
