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Today’s episode was enlightening for me, and you will find this also. I am privileged to interview Harry Levant, a recovering gambling addict, Doctoral Student at Northeastern University, Primary Therapist at Ethos Treatment Center, Internationally Certified Gambling Counselor, and Founder of Ethical Gambling Reform Group.
Harry is very knowledgeable about gambling addiction and a fabulous teacher. In this episode, he begins sharing his story.

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See full transcript below.


00:01

You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.

Intro:   Welcome back! Buckle up!  Today we are going to take a deep dive into gambling addiction and gaming addiction with Harry Levant, a certified gambling addiction counselor a doctorate student at my awesome alma mater Northeastern University, and a recovering gambling addict. Harry has a gift with his words, a great teacher we’re going to learn a lot and it’s great to have someone who can share it so well. Let’s begin with Harry starting to tell his story.

00:50

The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast

Margaret  01:06

Harry, I am absolutely thrilled to have you on here. I think we need to share how we connected because that was one of the cool parts of our little story. Is we are both ‘Go Huskies’! 

Larry:  We’re both Huskies. 

Margaret:  I’m an alum, and you’re presently in school at Northeastern University. So, let’s start there. For anyone who may be listening who may be affiliated with Northeastern, I just think it’s a great organization. But tell us about your newest venture in your long career.

Harry Levant  01:31

It’s my ongoing journey, I like to call it. Northeastern is one of the most special places I’ve ever had the privilege to attend. Probably two of the most important decisions I’ve ever made academically, educationally professionally, were to pursue my master’s in professional clinical counseling at Salle University in Philadelphia, because explorers are never lost. 

And then the crazy idea I had in the middle of the night during the early part of COVID and 2020, that I think I want to go get a doctorate. I had no idea exactly what I wanted my doctorate in, started thinking about it, get some advice was an amazing professors at LaSalle. And then stumbled late one night on the doctor in Law and Policy Program at Northeastern University in Boston, as you said, Go Huskies. 

And when I read the description of the program, I literally thought someone had written it for me. And at that point, it was just a crazy idea or dream. Can I do this, and little by little one day at a time, one foot in front of the other came to fruition. And I’m days away from starting the third quarter of my first year in the Doctor of Law and Policy Program at Northeastern, where my research is going to be all about examining the need to bring a public health approach to the gambling industry and replacing the failures of the responsible gaming industry self-regulation model, with regulation and reform, grounded in public health and science.

Margaret  03:09

Wow. So, lots to unpack there for my audience, which are mainly family members, people who love someone with this disease, however the disease shows up. I’m excited to have you on because I want to deal with not only substance use disorder, which is obviously where a lot of people focus around addiction. But process addictions are equally destructive and part of our world. And so, the gambling and gaming part of it is a big reason for inviting you to be on. 

Before we go into your story as I know you’re willing to share. Let’s just talk about the fact that you are in your third quarter, going in 

Larry:  Of my first year 

Margaret:  While working fulltime?

Harry Levant  03:53

In one of, I can’t say we’re the best, one of the finest treatment centers. I’m in my office in my group room here at Ethos Treatment Center just outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. 

So, I’m a full-time mental health and substance disorder therapist at Ethos Treatment Center, we’re based in Plymouth Meeting, Pennsylvania, literally right outside of Philadelphia. 

I’m in our Broomall, Pennsylvania Office. So that’s my full-time job. And then I’m also full time in the document Law and Policy Program at Northeastern University. So, yes, we’re doing the two things at the same time. 

Margaret:  Hats off. 

Harry:  In fact, I fly to Boston tomorrow to do some research as a matter of fact.

Margaret  04:29

So, you go between Philadelphia and Boston and obviously your treatment center is supportive of the doctorate, or they wouldn’t be willing to work with you.

Harry Levant  04:38

They’re fantastic. We’ll talk about this in a little bit. I joined Ethos to create a gambling addiction and mental health treatment program. 

The primary group that I run is a hybrid of both mental health treatment and gambling addiction treatment because gambling addiction you described it a moment ago as a process addiction. 

Medically it is categorized in the same category as substance use disorder. It is an addiction on the exact same level as heroin, and opioids, and cocaine, and alcohol, and tobacco. So, we’ll talk about the terminology. But it’s important that those who hear this understand that gambling is just as addictive a product as are heroin, and opioids.

Margaret  05:24

And I appreciate that clarity, because I’m actually really excited about this conversation, because I have a lot to learn. And I know our audience has a lot to learn. So, all of those great points that can help us understand this in a new way. Or if we’re living in it, in a familiar way that validates what the experience is for our loved ones who have people with addiction to gambling or gaming,

Harry Levant  05:45

Particularly with families, because the impact on what we call affected others is significant with all addictions. I mean, one person may be addicted, the entire family suffers. It’s particularly acute with gambling because it’s so difficult to spot until there has been significant damage. 

And that damage inexorably impacts, loved ones, family members, people closest to the person who’s struggling. 

And that’s part of what I’m looking at it in my research at Northeastern, and as part of what we see, working with people who are struggling to overcome gambling addiction. 

Certainly, impacted me.

Margaret  06:24

Yeah, so paint that picture a little either through your story or what you see in the research you’re doing. Because I’m well aware of certain substances, we tend to have challenges, consequences, bottoms faster hitting than other substances.

You just shared that it’s harder to spot until major damage or major consequence. So, paint that picture for us.

Harry Levant  06:47

Gambling is often referred to as the silent addiction. I’m not a big fan of comparing bottoms. We don’t do it in my groups very often. One thing all bottoms have in common is that they are painful. But in looking at the pathway of the destruction that takes place, for someone who is struggling with gambling, and gambling addiction. There are few if any initial visible signs. 

In no way am I trying to minimize one drug or alcohol problem versus gambling. All addiction is painful for anyone who is suffering and their family members. 

But typically, there will be some visible manifestations with drugs and alcohol may be slurred speech, difficulty getting out of bed in the morning, a hangover, if you will. It may be erratic behavior. Oftentimes there’s a DUI brings the matter to someone’s attention. There are paraphernalia. There are lots of clues that are visible. We often know that a person is struggling with drugs or alcohol. Gambling is very quickly in this country becoming socially normalized. You can’t watch a sporting event, daytime or nighttime without being bombarded with gambling commercials, talk of gambling infiltrates the broadcast. Gambling is everywhere, it’s being made normal. 

In addition, there are no visible manifestations initially when someone is struggling. So, it’s both more difficult for someone to come forward because all around we see people who appear to be enjoying this new product, gambling. There are no screening protocols. If you go to your doctor for your annual physical, she will ask you:

Do you smoke? How much?

Do you drink? How often?

Do you use any drugs? Which ones? 

No one screens or looks for gambling. It’s therefore referred to for these reasons and others as the silent addiction. And what often happens is when a person who is struggling comes forward and says I have a problem. It is at that moment in time that the affected others, whether it’s a partner, a spouse, children, parents, siblings, coworkers will then learn of the financial devastation, and beyond. So, these are among the reasons why I say it’s so difficult to spot.

Margaret  09:22

As a family member who had no awareness of my ex fiancé’s, he caught a compulsion. I remember the same experience you’re describing when I was finally told the truth. That not the so much financial distress, but the awareness of the things that I had overlooked, excused, denied, in a behavioral sense or in a relational sense. 

Do the family members of people with gambling addiction refer to that too? Yes, they find out the devastation financially which has got to be like the rug pulled out from underneath you.

But on the other side, do they talk about having that awareness then of my gosh, now, okay, this behavior makes sense or this change makes sense. Now, these things that I maybe thought were weird or concerning, make a lot of sense.

Harry Levant  10:14

One of the hallmarks really think of all addiction, and particularly with gambling addiction, the lies, the deceit.

In order to sustain an addiction and addictive behavior, most people resort to all kinds of lies. This is particularly acute with gambling. I made my last bet on April 27, 2014. I’m approaching one day at a time; I’m approaching the nine-year anniversary of my last bet.

Margaret:   Awesome!

Larry:  Thank you, I will tell you that. When I think back on the worst years of my gambling addiction, and the last two years 2012 It was pathological. I was caught in the grip of something I could not escape. But the lies, the deceit. It’s one lie built on top of another. And one of the things that happens to family members is when the bottom falls out, and the truth is known. Not only do family members often blame themselves, how did I not know? How was I fooled in this way? But others will look at the family members and say, how’d you not know, they’ll judge, and gambling disorder, gambling addiction is not about money. It’s about the way the product makes the person feel. Money is the vehicle that you need to be in action. In order to get your fix to get your action, you need money. And what will a person who is struggling with an addiction do to get their fix?

Whatever they need to. There’s deceit, there are financial crimes, there were many financial crimes in my story.

So, when the truth comes out, the ripple effect on the family members is enormous. And sadly, we do very little about that. And when we talk about this whole responsible gaming model that the gambling industry, and its partners promote, it rarely, if ever looks at or counts those folks in the harm that’s taking place.

Margaret  12:33

I think that’s a universal truth with all addictions. I think we subserve do not give enough resources, time, effort, energy to the people who are the collateral damage of the person with the disease, whichever model that form falls in.

Harry Levant  12:47

I’m selective in doing podcasts. One of the reasons why I was so grateful when you reached out to me and we connected through our Northeastern University connection and beyond.

Is that it’s always my hope, when we talk that we will reach people who are struggling, and we will reach family members who are struggling to let them know you are not alone. The isolation that comes with gambling addiction is extraordinarily painful. 

Statistics show us that one out of every two people who struggle with gambling disorder, will contemplate suicide. And one in five will make an attempt. The impacts are just enormous. So again, I’m selective in what podcasts I do, but I was just really touched when you asked because I know we will reach family members as a result of our conversation today.

Margaret  13:41

Well, I’m honored that you allowed me to be one of your selected people. 

I want to get into your story. For most of us in this field, our story is a part of it. Why we are driven to, why we pursue, why we want to help others. 

Is that true for you? And what parts of your story do you want to share that I know will help our families understand much more what their loved ones may be experience and how it’s affecting them.

Harry Levant  14:06

I made my first bet. When I was 14 years old. I went to the casino for the first time when I was 16 years old. Gambling was illegal in Nevada. And gambling was legal in Atlantic City. It wasn’t like today where my phone is in my pocket. I’m in Pennsylvania, you can bet on anything on your phone today. But I digress. 

I never had a healthy relationship with gambling. But it didn’t become pathological till many years later. I point out that I never had a healthy relationship because I want people to understand that this is how addiction works. It lurks. It remains with you. It may ebb and flow, but it does not get better without help. It does not get better without support. It just gets progressively worse and left untreated. Addiction lands you in a hospital, in jail, or in a morgue. That’s what addiction looks like.

Margaret: No matter the addiction, 

Harry:  No matter the addiction. And as professionals, there’s a school of thought that we are supposed to use the words disorder. It’s a gambling disorder, it’s an alcohol disorder. Those are the official terms. And it is important that we use person first language, I don’t treat gambling addicts, I treat people working to overcome gambling disorder, or gambling addiction. But when I tell my story, I use the word addiction. And there’s a reason why. 

One of the hardest things people who are struggling face and family members face is stigma. The difficulty in coming forward and talking about your suffering, I understand the softer approach of the word disorder. But if we’re going to eliminate stigma in society, we have to stop being afraid of the word addiction, like telling you and I tell your audience, I am a gambling addict. In addition to being a gambling addict, I am a father, I am a son, I am a sibling, I’m someone’s partner. I’m a regular human being who struggled with a debilitating illness, I use the word addiction. To me a disorder is when your toaster stops toasting properly, your toaster has a disorder, you need a new one. Addiction is not pretty. And we need to stop being afraid to use the word.

Margaret  16:34

And you’re preaching to the choir. And I thank you for that clarity. And I know that everybody has to internally come to their own truth of what they’re going to use for language. And I have respect for that. I also use that term, I have to remember where I came from. That’s also part of why I use the language I use. Because that was the language that got me to the point of surrendering to the recovery required for me to be well.

Harry Levant  16:58

I agree with you completely.

17:00

This podcast is made possible by listeners like you.

Bumper:  There is something special about being able to be in person for a retreat and I wanna let you know that that is happening this summer a few times.

Today I want to remind you that I will be participating with an amazing team at a family recovery retreat sponsored by the Spiritual Retreat Program in Camp Wapogasset in Amery Wisconsin. it’s going to be a combination of people with the disease of addiction and their family members, and we are going to talk about the disease of addiction and recovery from that disease. It’s going to be experiential and life changing! 

So, if you’d like to join us there’s only a few spots left but please go to the website 

spiritualprogramretreat.org

and I’ll have that in my notes and check out this incredible experience.

And our keynote speaker will be the one and only Sandy Swenson

17:45

You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast. Can you relate to what you’re hearing? Never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.

Margaret  17:57

So, before we go further, because I appreciate where your heading, just a little background real briefly. In your family of origin, any addiction history, because I know a lot of people wonder about the genetics and so forth. Is there any of that in your family history?

Harry Levant  18:12

It’s difficult to answer the question as phrased because not that was diagnosed. 

Margaret:  Got it. 

Harry Levant:  But I would certainly say that there were mental health struggles, in my family. I struggled with mental health issues that were a huge part of my treatment and recovery. Following my last bet and doing the work to overcome the etiology of my gambling addiction. Gambling was very prevalent in my family, it was very socially acceptable, it wouldn’t be appropriate for me to try and look back in time and apply diagnostic criteria. 

Margaret:  Amen. 

Harry Levant:  I think it’s enough to say that there were mental health struggles in my family. Gambling was both a result of those mental health struggles. And a contributing factor to those mental health struggles, is probably the best way to inform your audience. 

I want to double back for a second without the use of the word addiction because while I use it to describe myself to try and help reduce stigma.

People will ask you in social settings, what do you do for a living? I’m a substance or mental health therapists. Invariably somebody will say, oh, so you worked with the drug addicts. You work with gambling addicts. At that moment, part of reducing stigma is no I don’t. I work with people and families working to overcome gambling disorder or gambling addiction or alcohol disorder, alcohol addiction. 

So, the words matter. And I choose to call myself an addict for a reason because I want people to become less afraid of the word.

I’ve encountered very few topics, that once we start talking about them, few if any, we can’t improve by having these conversations. Gambling was always a part of my life. But I went on to college, a bachelor’s degree in criminal justice, went to law school, graduated law school, and became a practicing lawyer. I was a trial lawyer in Philadelphia for 24 years, 22 and a half of them, I remember fondly the last year and a half obliterated in a disastrous, pathological, gambling addiction. 

But along the way, looking back with the benefit of recovery, and hindsight, I never had a healthy relationship with money. I could advise other people, I could help clients, I could handle sophisticated trials. I couldn’t balance a checkbook. The underlying causes of that wouldn’t become fully understood by me until years in treatment following my last bet. But it’s important to look back and recognize that I never had a healthy relationship with money. I never had a healthy relationship with gambling.

There were parts of me that were being self-medicated, all along the way. And for people who truly dive into the work of recovery, you pick off a bunch of scabs, and you look at old wounds if you’re going to heal. 

So, there’s benefit of treatment, understanding that I have now to try and put your audience in the place where I was, then. 

By all outward appearance, I’m a home and school president. I’m a little league umpire and coach, I have three wonderful children. By all outward appearances, everything is wonderful. 

The problems that are percolating on the inside are real and would continue to poke at me. And around 2011, 2012, a number of things all kind of started to go wrong in my life at the same time, some very personal things for me, loss of my father a year earlier. And when my father passed away, there were unresolved issues, some of which related to a long history of trying to bond around gambling. Issues related to the practice of law, my father was a tremendous, tremendous trial lawyer. And there were a lot of issues that I would have liked to tell myself had been resolved, but they weren’t. Other things personally and professionally, all came together in mid to late 2012. And I, at some point in time, ran to my drug of choice. And my drug of choice was gambling. Every national and international accrediting body recognizes gambling as a full-fledged addictive product and gambling addiction as a full-fledged addiction.

Margaret  23:08

You said drug of choice, my language is a drug of no choice. And I’m curious where you lie with that kind of language, because I don’t believe it was a choice for me. And I don’t believe it was for you. But I’m curious where you are with that.

Harry Levant  23:20

Yeah, I agree. I don’t mean it that way, that it was a voluntary choice. Drug of choice is sort of a vernacular a bit in the treatment world. What I mean by drug of choice is I am not a person drawn to drugs. I don’t smoke marijuana. That’s not my thing. The thing that activates me is gambling. To the extent of choice means, what was my addiction? What was the thing that made me, and we can take this one of two ways? What was the thing that made me feel a particular way, and help me not feel other things? Because what most people typically understand about addiction is that the addictive product will numb a person. 

You can drink, you can snort cocaine, you can use heroin, you can gamble, and it will for a period of time, numb part of your pain. 

What most people don’t understand, and frankly, what I wouldn’t want our worst enemies to ever experience 

Margaret:  Right 

Harry Levant:  is the type of euphoria that substance that product also brings. One of those things by itself, a person can possibly withstand. But when you are experiencing both the relief of the agony that you struggle to face, and an elevation to an ecstasy that is unhealthy, it creates a cycle of addiction where the more you use, the more you need, the more you need, the more you use. So, when I say of choice, that thing for me, that we’ve just described, was gambling. 

Like I told someone a story the other day, I can still remember, still remember, the smell the first time I went in a casino. I still remember the smell. It went through my body, like something, I can conjure it up. And I do that with some intent because I don’t ever want to lose sight and lose touch with what my clients are struggling with. And this is part of what I think you meant when you brought up the of choice. These are not conscious choices, the way the product makes the person who is struggling feel. It was 10 Disney worlds for me the first time I went into a casino. 

So, I guess the most important point is it’s not just the pain relief, which was a huge part of this for me. But it’s pain relief with a euphoria. And what I came to learn later, it was I was in so much pain from so many different places, personally and professionally. That I was really trying to kill myself the only way I knew how. And it felt like the most ecstatic ride. And it also one of the lowest of lows. 

Margaret:  Yes. 

Harry Levant:  And once you’re caught in that cycle, there is no easy way out, you will reach for whatever you need, keep that going. You need your fix, I would wake up in the morning, I would look in the mirror and I would look in that mirror. And I would say don’t do it. Today I would talk to myself, almost begging myself not to that it doesn’t work that way.

Margaret  26:53

and meaning it 

Harry Levant:  of course, 

Margaret:  with every ounce of our being in that moment meaning that I will not again do it today. I will do different today. And promising to people that we will, when they do meaning it, when we promise to people that disease grips us and away we go.

Harry Levant  27:11

And the self-loathing when you fail each day. 

Margaret:  Yeah, 

Harry Levant:  which then you have to medicate that much more. So, for someone who may be struggling out there who is listening to this, understand that you are caught in the cycle of the disease of addiction. Help is available, but you cannot break out of this cycle on your own.

Outro:  What a vivid and clear description of the power of the disease of gambling addiction Harry has left with us.

A baffling, powerful, and cunning disease that no one can heal from alone,

Come back next week when Harry returns and shares more of his story and his advocacy around gambling addiction.

Margaret  28:13

I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website. 

embracefamilyrecovery.com

This is Margaret Swift Thompson. 

Until next time, please take care of you.