I am excited to introduce you to a former colleague, Dustin Brockberg, and his wife, Kerry, who are the authors of a phenomenal book called ‘End Your Covert Mission: A Veteran’s Guide to Fighting Pain & Addiction.’
On today’s episode, Dustin, a veteran, psychologist, and adjunct professor at Hazelden Betty Ford, shares why writing a book that combines the psychology and the veteran perspective was essential. We also hear from his wife, Kerry, a psychologist at Courage Kenny who works with those dealing with chronic pain in rehabilitation.
They both share the need for respect, curiosity, and willingness to go at the speed the veteran needs. While this conversation centers upon military veterans, it is parallel to those families dealing with loved ones who suffer from the disease of addiction, especially when returning home from treatment.
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See full transcript below.
00:01
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast. A place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Intro: Welcome back! Today we have the opportunity to hear from Dustin and Kerry Brockberg. Husband and wife, both Doctors of Psychology and Dustin a veteran of the military. Dustin will share his story of returning home. We also will hear his wife Kerry’s perspective she shares with us her story of how she began a relationship with Dustin and his family. They both share the need for respect and curiosity and the willingness to go at the speed that the veteran needs. While this conversation centers upon military veterans it offers many parallels to families with loved ones who suffer from the disease of addiction.
Please meet Dustin and Kerry Brockberg the authors of the book, ‘End Your Covert Mission, a veteran’s guide to fighting pain and addiction.
As the back of the book says ‘End your Covert Mission is an approachable non-judgmental guide for stopping the self-imposed mission of solitary suffering and adopting new strategies, new gear that can lead to a healthier happier life.
00:50
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
Margaret 01:09
Dustin and Kerry, I am so thrilled to have you both with and on the podcast. I’m a big fan of the fact that you have both taken the time to write such a tactile is the wrong word. But I was just struck by how you give so much in your book of concrete examples, hands on techniques, things to try and to use for their well-being. So, before we dive into the book anymore, if you would introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about what led you to write your book and your covert mission.
Dustin 01:42
My name is Dr. Justin Brockberg, and I am a licensed psychologist here at Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation, the whole book, it actually was, in some ways a matter of luck, how this all kind of came out. I was actually speaking at a conference and got approached to consider writing a book around some of these topics I was discussing. And when I was approached, I had two thoughts. One was that’s an awesome idea. And two is I need my spouse because she’s better writer, she’s better looking. And she’s gonna make this book awesome. And so, okay, so I have the veteran component of things, I have that knowledge base, but I don’t fully know everything about pain in that world. And as a kid, he knows everything about that. And so, melding this all together was kind of the perfect circle. And then happy, happenstance was also that if you go out into the world, you don’t see books that are actually combining all these things into one, right you see a lot of veteran books on theory on one veterans experience or on just psychological concepts, but never a melding of all those things into one book. And so that’s kind of what, from my perspective, what really started this, but with that Kerry, take it away.
Kerry 02:46
So hi, I’m Dr. Kerry Brockberg, Dustin’s wife, and I am also a psychologist here in Minnesota, I work at a line of health under Department called Courage Kenny, so I work with folks with chronic pain, brain injuries, spinal cord injury, stroke, other chronic health conditions and disabilities. So that’s my area of expertise and work currently.
Yeah, Dustin, kind of shared the story, but it was super excited when he came home and shared with me that, you know, they want us to write a book. I said no way, really that’s awesome.
You know, we kind of joked over the years, as we were dating into, you know, first being married, no one do. Maybe we’ll write a book, maybe we’ll write a book, just kind of a joke. The family Dustin has a huge family was always like, are you gonna write a book? And we were always like, oh, maybe yeah, we like writing. And he came home, and I was like, wow, this would be so great. And as soon as he said the topic, I was like, oh, yes, this is going to be amazing. And it’s been a awesome experience together, because we really just had this like parallel process going on. While we were writing and uncovering these stories from other veterans, we were kind of reminiscing on the stories he shared with me as during his time in the military. So, it was awesome experience. I was so happy Dustin brought me on.
Margaret 04:07
So, thank you for your service, Dustin, maybe we should go back and talk about that a little bit, so people who haven’t read the book, who I’m sure will run out and get it after this conversation, know a little bit about what led your family to say, “when are you going to write a book?” Because I would think that’s a different emphasis than a professional approaching you about.
Dustin 04:26
Yeah, so I think you know, a lot of ways my story is a little bit unique in the sense that when I left high school, I really didn’t know what I wanted to do. College didn’t really seem like even a possibility for me. And I always had this fascination with history and what better way to make history than to be part of the military. And so, I decided to join the military, I was in the army for four years. My running joke is I was small enough to fit into a tank. So, I did that for four years. So, imagine like a big turtle, that’s kind of how I think about tank.
Margaret: It’s a good visual!
Dustin: It’s a really good visual Yeah, but it’s not so great on the underbelly, so you gotta be careful. Yeah, so during my time in service, I was stationed at Fort Knox, Kentucky, I was stationed in Fort Bliss, Texas, did tour in Iraq, did a hardship tour in South Korea. And when I got out, I was able to actually get out a little bit early, because the stipulation if you go to school, you can get early. So that was kind of my path to get out. And I never really left school, like, once, I don’t know, that’s where I realized I can actually do some of the things I never thought I was able to do. So that in and of itself is like a learning, you know, manifesto itself. But I think what really prompted the idea of wanting to write a book or wanting to kind of share my own knowledge, not only personally, but also professionally was, when I came home, I was not okay. When I came home, I was struggling, when I came home, I really didn’t know what was gonna happen. And there was actually certain people, places, and things that really kind of stepped up and saved my life and put me in a environment that I could actually change my narrative. And so, this book is exactly that. It’s an opportunity to change someone’s narrative to pain to change someone’s narrative to mental health, to addiction, and to really instill a sense of hope for people. So that’s really what kind of motivated that part for me.
Margaret 06:15
And so, what’s interesting in what you just shared is there’s this piece of you that got to a point through your military experience, to have the confidence to believe you could go on and do a school. And running and tangent was this readjustment to life after the military that wasn’t striving you forward? Is that what I’m hearing?
Dustin 06:33
Right? There’s a running stat, I don’t know the current numbers, but I’ll kind of butcher it for a second that the military spends a lot of money to train you to get in the military, and very little money to get you out of the military. And, you know, there’s a lot of initiatives in the VA and things like that trying to help vets out. So, I’m not trying to knock that system but more of a misunderstanding that you kind of get thrown back into the world, with four years or eight years however long you’re in the military, with all this life experience, all this good and bad things have happened most likely for a lot of people, changes in your personality, your identity, all these kind of components of things, and you’re thrust back into your family system that continued Right, your friends all got married, and kids, they went to college, but you are this brand spanking new 22 year old, with the world in front of you, and no idea what to do with it. So, I think there’s a lot of crises going on in that process.
Margaret 07:21
And that brings Kerry in and I don’t know if it was at 22. But from the standpoint of being thrust back into the world and into a family. Let’s sort of speak to that, you know, your perception of what that was like, Dustin is very true and real to you, from the family’s perception it’s equally real and true.
07:42
Kerry: Yeah, so I actually entered into Dustin’s life a lot later than that. So, we met in our Ph. D. program. Go Badgers. So, I was definitely a part of his life and experience after the military, after he had done a lot of work in his own personal and professional life. But I think the uniqueness of coming in at that point, I was able to kind of process through or talk through or ask questions when he was in a really different space to share, which is a huge part of, you know, our book we talk about, like timing is really important and understanding when a veteran is ready to share some of these stories and experiences.
So that was kind of the uniqueness of my story. But I think something that I’ve always had the highest respect for is actually the stories of the people closest to Dustin at that time. So, his mom, his dad, his aunt’s Dustin has a huge family. So, it’s always been something where I have even asked them their perspective. And I guess one of my favorite stories, Dustin, if it’s okay to share is his mom used to, Christmas is a huge thing for his family and she would leave up the Christmas tree with red white and blue lights on it, to like represent Dustin when he wasn’t there and just kind of showed like the amount of respect and honor and just how proud she was of him and continues to be I mean, she gushes over Dustin. The joke is Dustin’s a little bit of a mama’s boy. And that’s okay. But I mean, everyone in his family is just the highest level of respect. I mean, he has definitely paved the way for even younger members of the family to want to get into the military as well. And he had his own role models and his family. So, I’ve had just learned so much from his experience and then the wider family network, myself having actually pretty limited military experience and Veteran experience prior to actually meeting Dustin.
So, I it’s just been this amazing sort of system to understand that suddenly even just Dustin’s immediate family, the veteran family, let me tell you, that’s a very cool family to be a part of and have just felt so welcomed and just happy, and really warm to be a part of that environment and the military and veteran families.
Margaret 10:11
To hear you speak. I’m curious how this interprets, I hear that you went into it with a respect, and a curiosity to learn and be taught, in a timeline that was good for Dustin. And his family possibly. So, is that a very important part of supporting someone who was in active service, and in their return to civilization and life on life’s terms?
Kerry 10:43
I would love to hear Dustin’s experience, for sure. But I think yes, and the reason why I am so strongly aware of that is from my own clinical experiences with veterans, and from the veterans, we reached out to, for this book, the same pattern showed up like, be patient with us. We want help, but we’re not sure how to do that. And slow down know that we go at our own pace, just this constant pattern of, please be mindful of like, where we’re at, and how we want to get there. But we’re not maybe sure how that looks right now. And I think that’s kind of how I guide my practice of letting folks open up when they’re ready and when feels good to them. And that’s personally how Dustin, I have navigated some of the conversations that still come up, even, you know, however, many years later,
11:36
Dustin: I would just say to that, so I’m going to do the same breath, Kerry, I’m going to share a nickname I give you. And that is I tend to call her Dora the Explorer a lot. And she’s probably the most curious person they were met. And such a humbling, respecting, wonderful thing is absolutely, I think essential for partners and families, friends of members of the military, to have a sense of curiosity, and a sense of respect of when a person is ready to have that conversation. And to what capacity that might look like.
You know, I think if anything has been really helpful, how important it was to actually have somebody like carry, to question things in my experience, not in the sense of a judgement in the sense of a genuine curiosity to it. That allowed me to then say things and say, wait a minute, that was a really bad mindset to have, or, wow, that really helped me back then. But not so much now. And I had to kind of voice that to kind of say that out loud. realize, like, wait a minute, that’s no longer necessary. I’m no longer at threat anymore, or whatever that might look like. And so having those honest conversations was actually quite therapeutic for me in some ways. I think that is something that I would argue all family members, whether you’re a veteran or not, you have a something that’s happened somebody’s life, like there’s a level of curiosity that but also respect to that they’re not trying to hurt when they’re asking about necessarily, what also the other person respecting when a boundary is being set of like, you know, I can’t talk about that right now. And that’s okay, that’s totally fine. But still honoring that something did happen. Something was occurring in that moment. So yeah, so I think I think to that point, it’s absolutely necessary.
Margaret 13:16
And do you think Dustin, coming back to your home and your family, I heard Kerry reference, you had people in your family that are role models from the military standpoint, but do you think that you had curiosity for how the experience was for them having you gone?
13:31
Dustin: Yeah, it’s actually it’s funny, you mentioned that I thought about this experience a while ago, where I was in Iraq. I was at this kind of barracks area where you have all these kinds of barriers around these like little mobile home house, things that we would live in. And whenever there’s artillery being fired, or things like incoming in onto the base, a siren goes off. So, then you take cover, and pray that is not hitting anywhere near you, or hitting anywhere near your buddies, or really anybody. You don’t want anyone to get hurt, right. And oftentimes, because of the time difference, I would call people at 2,3,4 in the morning, because then it would be their time in the next day. And so, I’d be talking to people the family and I’d hear the siren go off. And I would start coughing so they didn’t hear it or I would try to protect them in some ways. I don’t want them to know that I’m in threat or anything is going on. All the while in my head. I’m like, I have to like jump away to avoid, you know, being hurt here. And I think that was a big part of my mindset is trying to almost protect their version of what was happening to me overseas and not trying to let them know if I had a really hard day or somebody had passed. I wasn’t able to tell them what I was doing. I was able to tell them where I was specifically. That’s more like an OPSEC thing if you don’t want to tell them those kind of things. But it also felt for me in that moment, a survival mechanism that was almost a gear for me, that I had to have that gear on to protect them but probably more subconsciously to protect myself a little bit because if I knew that they were not okay, that would impact my ability to be okay where I was, and to do what I need to do. So, I think there’s both and going on there. That’s a really good question.
15:04
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16:28
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Margaret 16:40
I’m sure I hadn’t thought of this until this moment, but I’m sure people are out there listening going. Hey, Margaret, you’re always talking about addiction. Why have you got Dustin and Kerry on talking about veterans? Well, an obvious answer. And I’m sure you know the stats better than I, because I don’t. There’s a lot of people in the experience of military world who have addiction as a part of their story. True?
Dustin 17:07
Very much so. Yeah. And I would say, you know, addiction, along with physical pain, chronic pain, mental health concerns, those all go hand in hand, and they often contribute to one another. Right? So, whether it be individual from the service, you know, struggling with addiction, as they’re coping with their mental health or coping with pain. It can be members of family that were off on their own for a year while their spouse is deployed and the impact that can have on a person. I mean, addiction was happening across the board, for sure.
Kerry 17:39
I think we also talked about the importance of addiction, not just being connected to some was in the military. So now they experienced addiction, even though there is, and we mentioned this, and we had a lot of really great anecdotes about folks saying how substances were a part of the culture when they were serving. But we talk a little bit about how even you know, before entering the military or afterwards, during I mean, being in the military is not a being in a bubble, right. So, if you’ve had previous experiences prior to after, at any point, some of those things can come into play as well. So that was something that we really wanted to make sure that we weren’t just pigeon holing that being in the military means that someone experiences this or that’s the only reason why someone has an addiction issue, that there’s a whole timeline here that we have to consider, especially if folks have been through trauma and other things in their life.
Margaret 18:40
Well, I think that’s a very, very good point. I think that you hear the stats in his stats about people taking their life, you hear the stats about veterans who struggle with chemical dependency addiction, substance use disorder or other process addictions. And I think it’s a really valid point that, if I’m hearing you right, to say that the environment, the trauma, the experience of military could exacerbate the problem, but if we consider it a freestanding disease, it is something somebody had already. And it was brought about because of the military or made worse because of that experience as a coping mechanism. Or I think, to your point, Dustin, that you’re saying if someone had a pain issue due to injury, that it could be induced by using opiates for extended periods of time.
19:32
Dustin: Right, right. Yeah. So, in our book, we talked about ACEs a little bit, and that’s this idea of how childhood trauma might predispose a person to how they might experience trauma later in life or other really hard events in their life. And with the disease model, there’s also this component of epigenetics and how the environment might play a role and whether or not I think of it as almost like a light switch. Sometimes the dimmer might dim up or dim down, but it’s always there.
And the military I would argue is the most resilient group. And you know, I’m biased as all heck, but there’s some wonderful people in that community and in the veteran community. And I think in a lot of ways, a lot of people that are in that community are also maybe going through hardship have gone through hardship as a reason why they joined. And those kinds of other cultural components play a role in that. And then to Kerry’s point, whether it be you broke your leg and had to go on painkillers, or you have chronic back pain, or anything like that, that could then create a whole host of issues down the road, all the while you’re reintegrating back into society that doesn’t understand what happened to you, you’re switching from being a member of the military to being a veteran, civilian. And like, all those things put in one pot. I mean, that’s hard, I don’t care who you are as hard. And so, within that, that also then makes the important point of everyone’s journey and recovery and addiction in this community is so unique, and to be able to understand their story that it’s never going to be a one size fits all, it never will. And that’s just one of the best things about this group, too.
Margaret 21:11
I really appreciate you saying that about the resiliency, because it’s beyond me to imagine how anyone can enlist, be trained, be subjected to all that you may or may not have been subjected to, with or without combat, it’s incomprehensible to me.
Dustin 21:27
Yeah.
Margaret 21:28
And I agree, I don’t think you can be drawn to that, without a significant something about you to navigate it and then come home and reassimilate to a society that’s so different than what you went through in the military.
Dustin 21:46
I think there’s also a level of like grief and loss to that can happen in this community a lot more than just like, an obvious losing a member of military family. But for example, if let’s say I’m making this hypothetical situation, let’s say somebody is a legacy, so their whole family is joining the military. And so they join the military, right. And for some reason, year three, they get hurt, and they get a medical discharge, the army says you gotta leave, you’re done, you’re out. That is an existential loss, right? To lose your sense of identity, your purpose, your meaning, you feel like you’re letting down your family, your country, whatever it is, right. And we hear those stories all the time. And so yeah, so I think that there’s so many components of this, I would even argue, from my own perspective, it’s incomprehensible, at times to understand some of this stuff.
Margaret 22:33
And that’s coming from someone who served.
Dustin 22:36
Right. Right. Right,
Margaret 22:37
and works with many, many people who served.
Kerry 22:41
It’s kind of the beauty though, right? Like having folks that have been through something that they probably can’t even envision how this is going to go, right. And when you think about dealing with maybe substance use, or mental health or pain, whatever, might be coming up as a struggle, it’s hard to envision how something’s gonna go, we put a lot of weight on that. There’s a lot of anxiety that comes with that. But when you have that experience already as a veteran, that’s something to keep in mind when you’re coming up with struggles, with pain or addiction of you might not be able to see how this is gonna go tomorrow, a week, six months, but like you know that you’ve been through things before where you didn’t know how it was gonna go and you got through it. And that’s the strength that I think is amazing to carryover to understand about being a veteran that maybe is experiencing pain or addiction.
Outro: I really appreciate how Dustin and Kerry share two sides of a familiar story that many of us can relate to whether we are part of the military or not.
We all have had events happen from which we must reassimilate into our families or communities. Join us again next week as Dustin and Kerry share more with us about how to build trust in your most core relationships.
Margaret 24:13
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website,
This is Margaret Swift Thompson. Until next time, please take care of you.
