I recently had the opportunity to be a guest with Gloria Englund to speak about our upcoming retreat, ‘A Different Kind of Grief,’ on the Behavioral Health Integration Podcast hosted by Jacob Minnig. So today, I have the privilege of sharing the episode with you on my platform!
We talk about the family disease of addiction, grief, and much more.
To learn more about this Dec 9-11 retreat for people whose loved ones have died from addiction-related deaths, please call Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation Renewal Center at 1-651-213-4605.
See Full transcript below.
00:01
You’re listening to The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Margaret 00:28
Welcome back friends. Today’s episode is a little different. Gloria England and I had the privilege to be featured on the Behavioral Health Integration Podcast hosted by Jacob Minnig. Jacob is a mental health professional working at Zion Healing Center in Minnesota. Jacob’s goal with his BHI podcast is to raise awareness about, and encourage collaboration in the behavioral health community. To improve the services, we provide all of our clients. He graciously afforded us this opportunity to speak on our upcoming retreat, entitled ‘A Different Kind of Grief’℠, which will be held December 9 through 11th at Hazelden Betty Ford Renewal Center in Minnesota. As you listen consider whether you yourself or someone you love. If you’re a clinician, someone you treat, or someone you know who could benefit from joining us for this powerful retreat. Our spaces are filling fast, so don’t hesitate to register. Here is Jacob, Gloria and myself on the Behavioral Health Integration Podcast.
01:50
Behavioral Health Integrations Podcast strives to inspire the next generation of mental health and addiction specialists. Our aim is to continue to raise awareness and encourage collaboration in the mental health and addiction industry so that it will continue to thrive. There are numerous approaches to treating mental health and substance abuse issues. On this show, we take pleasure in showcasing the diversity of these approaches used to improve the lives of others. So, without further ado, your host Jacob Minnig.
Jacob 02:27
Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining me for another Behavioral Health Integration episode. Today we have two very special guests. First guest’s returning for a second time is Margaret Swift Thompson was the executive director and addiction recovery coach for families, and is the host of the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, and first-time special guest Gloria Englund. Gloria is a psychotherapist and recovery coach. She is a speaker, author, and advocate. She enjoys working one on one with groups. She’s also the author of her new book ‘Living in the Wake of Addiction Lessons for Courageous Caregiving’. She also runs an organization called Recovering U which offers presentations and workshops on a variety of recovery topics that can be delivered in a variety of settings.
In this episode, we will be discussing family, their addictions, how to handle loved ones passing away from substance abuse, and so much more. So, without further ado, let’s get started.
Well, again, Margaret, and Gloria, thank you so much for being on the show. I greatly appreciate it.
Margaret 03:34
Thank you for having us. We’re really honored to be with you and excited for people to hear more about this retreat.
Jacob: Absolutely
Gloria 03:40
I think it’s going to be unusual that to offer have this kind of support for families who have a loved one who has died from an addiction related death. I’m looking forward to doing it.
Jacob 03:55
So as all my listeners know, Margaret is a great returning guest. And Gloria, this is your first time on the show.
Gloria 04:02
Yes, this is exciting. I’m happy to meet you.
Jacob 04:05
Well, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself to start?
Gloria 04:09
Sure. I became very interested in the addiction recovery failed many years ago because my oldest son Aaron started having issues with drugs in his early and late teens. And as his use accelerated. He finally found the world of heroin and opioids. I was working in a marketing position at that time, but I am trained as a psychotherapist, I have a Master’s Degree in Human Development. And I kind of thought I knew everything there pretty much was to know about addiction. You know, after all, he was living with me. But I found out very quickly that I really didn’t understand the disease at all. After a very long time of being in and out of recovery, my son thought died in 2007 of a heroin overdose just two days out of treatment. And that just started me on a journey of trying.
I realized then that and remarks of people that were in his last recovery group said about him and his wonderful qualities and his leadership. And I spoke with a physician that last treated him and he was just astounded that Aaron would, would overdose. So, we were all I think, befuddled by the grips of opioid addiction and how strong it is, and how long it takes the brain to recovery.
And so, I just after he died, I started on a journey to really educate myself as much as I possibly could about addiction. Minnesota Recovery Connection had just opened its doors in 2010. I got training there as a recovery coach. And I went on and did more training, anything I could do about especially medicatation assisted treatment, I just wanted to know what we could have done different, because I really had hopes of being able to share with other people, things that I wished I would have done, right I would have known about. And that kept me on the path was the desire to help others. And eventually, I ended up writing a book about my relationship with Aaron and the things that I learned, like I said, wished I knew but learned after he died, and then went on and started doing grief groups for people who had a loved one who has died from addiction. And then I also did, groups. I also do groups for people who have a loved one who’s an active addiction. And that’s the group that supported through Minnesota Recovery Connection, they provide the Zoom platform for us, and I still do some private coaching. I still have my finger in it quite a bit.
Margaret 06:59
And you might want to share where you do your private coaching through your business.
Gloria 07:02
Yes, my website and my business and anything you want. You want to learn about me as that www.recoveringu.com that’s r e c o v, e r i n g, the letter u.com.
Jacob 07:17
And for all my listeners, these two lovely ladies will be in Minnesota relatively soon. Would you ladies like to explain why?
Margaret 07:25
Sure. So Gloria disclosure, Gloria is there already I’m coming in for a retreat. So, we’ve been asked to provide a retreat at Hazelden Betty Ford in Center City at the Renewal Center, which is this lovely part of the campus where they have sitting areas, group rooms, accommodations for taking for staying and also meals there. And we’re getting the opportunity to come together, Gloria and I and we met through my podcast, and created this retreat together for people who love someone who’s died as a result of their disease of addiction. And we’ve come together, and we’re going to have a place where people can come to learn. But more importantly, I think Gloria and I would both say this, but I’ll let you speak for yourself. More importantly, to feel like they can be where they’re at, to not have to perform, pretend be anywhere but where they’re at on their grief journey and to be supported and around others who have been on that path, are on that path, starting that path, and that they can create a community of support for one another. So, this is very exciting, because one of the things that sadly, we all know, in this field is we lose too many people to this disease like Aaron, like many others. And so, we want to start having, well Gloria has been doing it for a while. But I want to be a part of conversations and support and places for people to feel accepted where they’re at, around the tragedy of the fatality of this disease, which is unfortunately a truth of what it is for many people.
Gloria 09:02
I think it’s wonderful that Hazelden is wanting to do this. I’ve been looking for a platform like this for many years and was really exciting to plan with Margaret, you know taking my six-week group and being able to offer it in a more intense and way in just a weekend rather than spreading it out over, you know, a six week period for two hours every night. So, I think that the Renewal Center offers that great space for people to come together. Like Margaret says they’re they’re not going to have to worry about meals or coming and going unless they choose to stay off campus, but I think it will really be a great space for us all. And you know, I continue my healing journey every time I do one of these so it’s good for me. I hate to tell you it’s just as good for me. These are my peeps you know; these are the people that I understand and who understand me. So.
Jacob 09:57
Yeah, I remember in one of my grad school class, so is probably like the last year I was in my internship class. And I don’t want to say that I asked like a really dumb, insensitive question. But I feel like I asked a question where like a lot of common people would ask is that when you’re trying to help someone who’s gone through a death, or family members death, I call it ignorance, I just went to the professor, I’m like, well, when does someone get over their loved one? Or when can they or? How does that work? And she said, Well, they’re never gonna get over it. But again, you just learn to manage it better. Would you say that’s more of a better accurate answer?
Gloria 10:33
Well, we have a great graphic that will, we’re going to share about how you learn, you know, your grief really never changes, but you learn to grow around it. Each anniversary passes each year passes, each day, sometimes passes. And so that’s one of the best ways I like to explain it as you learn to grow around it. And I wouldn’t even say accept it, you just learn to grow around it, you learn how to go on each day, by living through it each day, I think, you know, one day builds on the next. And that does not mean that many years later, or just like any, you know, any other deaths that you can get triggered by the loss. And it’s right there, again. And this is one thing that I noticed a lot in my groups is that people, if there’s a loss that has happened recently to the lost loved one, or maybe happens even during our six week course, it just throws them way back to where they they’re into deep grieving again. And it’s just the way that it is I mean, that that’s a common facet of grief. But I think that the thing that makes this kind of deaths, harder for people to share with others and, and harder for them to accept themselves is the stigma around addiction. And you know, just the fact that it’s taken me 10 years to to do something like this when I’ve been doing it for this long, right.
Jacob 12:03
Anything to add Margaret?
Margaret 12:04
Yeah, glorious. In my opinion, Gloria is the expert of the duo of us when it comes to the grief journey, I would never, I’m excited for this because I know I’ll learn more and more about this as well. I have some training in working with traumatic grief, I have always been someone who believes that it’s okay to speak about it’s okay to not dance around it. And to be a part of this is just an honor for me, because I know that I will be in sacred space, I will be allowed into sacred space where people will be real and vulnerable and raw. And also, our intention is that they will feel supported in that space. And feel like they can have an open dialogue. We have a lot of things planned to offer resources, tools, but also just some space to be in the story to share their loved one with us. You know, I’ve heard from many family members Gloria take this after be pleased because you know better than I. Many family members who say it’s like they can’t ever say their name again. And they’re still a part of the family. Yeah, that’s not what this weekend is about for us.
Gloria 13:11
Yeah, one of the things that’s helpful for me, and that is my experience with my son, it isn’t that I can’t see his name, but nobody else does. That was what was very weird to me, where if someone else dies, usually people continue to talk about them. And maybe I have that wrong with just death in general, I suppose there’s extenuating circumstances for everyone. But what I’ve noticed is that as I’ve done this for 10 years, you know, unfortunately, the opioid epidemic brought to light, much more of the dangers of, you know, especially overdose. And it seems like the general public is more educated about it. And it seems like people are getting more real support, although I still have clients who do not feel safe enough to say how their loved one died. You know, don’t want to mention it in the memorial service or, so it’s, it’s really a mixed bag. I think we take five steps forward and then three back and, you know, I think that’s how it kind of is on any kind of a societal stigma. I know people you know, that have had a loved one die from suicide, experience, so much of the same things. My heart aches for them.
Margaret 14:32
It’s also, I’ll speak candidly from my own training when I went through the traumatic training for compassionate grief work. I remember sitting in that room as the panel shared, thinking, am I inviting this to my life?
Like am I because I’m in this room training? Is it the universe preparing me for God forbid when someone like one of my children. That’s what I found myself feeling and I had to give myself grace with that and not be too hard on myself. And wonder if that’s part of why society doesn’t say anything, because they don’t want to bring it too close to them because they don’t know how they would ever comprehend coping with it.
Gloria: Right?
Margaret: Or will they say the wrong thing? Or will I require that person who’s in their grief to take care of my feelings, which I never want to do? So, I think that there’s some of those components that are just exacerbated by the stigma around addiction that still is pervasive in our society.
Gloria 15:33
You know, that reminds me of a story, a woman wanted to contact me for some recovery coaching, she had a son that was struggling with opioid addiction. And I was recommended to her by two or three different people. And the people that referred her to me, told her that my son had died, well she was afraid to coach with me for fear that she was going to, you know, that her son was going to die if she worked with me. And that’s exactly what Margaret is talking about. Which I mean, isn’t that weird? I mean, you know, it’s like, it’s something you’re going to catch
Jacob: Like a disease or a virus?
Margaret 16:12
Yeah, I don’t think it was catching it. For me, it was the incomprehensibility of surviving it, and being that close to it, and seeing that level of pain. And a. why would I? But the other is, I think there is an overwhelming fear of people to get too close to other people’s grief for not knowing how to cope and because they go to that place of what would I feel and do and I don’t even have a clue,
Gloria 16:40
Right? I didn’t mean to minimize it by saying it’s something you’re you would catch, but I have one of my grief group members, kind of look at me and say you’re coaching people whose children are still alive? I said, yes, I am. I’ve learned a lot. It was a little challenging for me to hold that space. But I’ll tell you, it was Nell Hurley, when I was in recovery coaches training at Minnesota Recovery Connection, she was executive director there, and she said, you have to speak about this because you can, and you will be a message of hope for other people that you that life goes on. And that what was really, I mean, wow, you know, and people come into your life at a certain time. Like Margaret, and you, right, you know, you wonder why and how but, you know, you’ll learn later why.
Jacob 17:30
So, Gloria, can I piggyback on what you just said about you educating like parents whose children are still alive. It’s not uncommon when I talk to people, especially parents who still go through the grieving process, even when
Gloria: Yes,
Jacob: their son and daughter are still going through addiction. Because again, it’s almost like they are dead in a way in a particular way.
Gloria 17:51
We talk a lot about it being a two fold loss, about you know, you first you lose your, your loved one, when they lose their life to addiction, you know, they’re living life, right? They lose their hopes, their dreams, you know, so many of them lose children, you know, are taken away, or they can’t support them, they lose spouses, they lose their jobs, they lose their friends, and you watch them. And then of course, your life dreams, for them are gone too. But then, if they die, the hope of recovery keeps you from really living that loss as deeply as you could. But when they die, then it’s like everything comes tumbling down on you, that loss of dreams, the loss of time, and then the loss of life. I definitely think, I mean, there’s a lot of grief. I know, there’s a lot about grief that’s taught in treatment centers for people that are in treatment. Right, Margaret, you guys know about that more than I would,
Jacob 18:55
I know for the training programs I work at they’re actually trying to steer away from that due to the fact that there’s a lot of trauma and mental health related to the grieving process. And when people enter addiction, they’re just not ready to handle that. Does that make sense?
Gloria 19:07
They’re not doing that anymore. Wow.
Jacob 19:10
Well, some do what from what I was told is that they’re actually trying to push it oh, push it away and make it more of a mental health thing rather than a substance abuse thing. Which as we all know, that kind of go hand in hand. It’s
Gloria 19:22
It’s really hard to separate it, don’t you think Margaret,
Margaret 19:24
It is hard to separate them. And I think that you meet the client where they’re at and you face whatever’s coming up for them. And I’m sure that’s what most treatment centers are doing. But I do think that there’s the sectioning off addiction, substance use disorder for the clinicians, mental health, grief, trauma for the mental health side of it is definitely happening more and more. What I was going to say was, you said the words ‘Loss of Dreams’. That’s a pamphlet that was produced by Hazelden Betty Ford for people to recognize the grief that is a part of the journey even when the person does not die from the disease because the disease robs us of so much when we’re even so trying to live with it, live around it, navigate the destruction that it causes in the life of the person and the whole family. So, there is such a pamphlet, because I do think you bring up a good point, Jacob, it is definitely part of the disease system, there is a grief, the person we once knew is missing they’re there, but they are not them.
Gloria 20:22
You said that really well, Margaret. And I think probably their desire to try to separate those two is because I think they realized the impact of mental health and grief on the recovery process. And so that’s a way to bring more light to it, I think, and to hopefully give people more help. So yeah,
Jacob 20:44
Yeah, and there’s still not enough mental health related clinicians out there to again, help the clients with this process. We’re it’s just reality, there’s a lot more LADC’s than LPCCs. I assume him and I’m not gonna say it’s for sure. But I’m going to assume
Margaret 20:58
How about the fact that it’s an overloaded system, which needs more and more professionals in the field no matter what aspect we’re dealing with, because there’s such high demand for mental health and chemical dependency, and other process addictions. I mean, I think we in the field know that
Jacob 21:12
Very well said, another thing pointed out, so it is a requirement for loved ones to have a six month period after the loved one has passed away?
Gloria 21:22
Yes, that’s what we decided.
Jacob: That’s, it makes sense?
Gloria: Well, yeah, and that was a hard decision to make I you know, especially when it’s people that neither one of Margaret and I have worked with, you know, I think if I worked with someone, and did you know, even did one coaching session with them, I would have an idea of how they were going to handle it. And because everybody handles it differently. And so, I’ve had a couple of requests already from people that are not at six months. So, something Margaret and I have to discuss. But it’s a hard decision to make. Because you know, you kind of try to draw this, there’s a word again, boundary, right, and it’s a fit for some people and maybe not for others. So, we’re doing our best here.
Margaret 22:10
What I trust in this process, I’ve always done with every work I’ve ever done, and I trust it in this as well. There’s a higher power in the room, it’s not either of us, the right people will be brought to us. And the people in the chair of wanting to be there have a desire to be there and a resilience to make it there. And between that and decision to create the safety that’s right for them within that space. And to, you know, one of the things we’re doing is having a panel of people who have lost someone. And so just to hear them share and their journey and to know that they’re still doing, some doing really well, some having their moments, I think Gloria’s point of trigger is interesting. I hadn’t really thought of that in this lens for some reason, but it is absolutely true. In just my loss of my mom, year and a half ago, like I’ll be bumping along and doing okay, and then I’ll go for a drive hear a song and I’m in tears driving down the interstate. And it’s like, where did that come from? And I just hope people can give themself grace. That it is a journey, and it’s not linear. And we don’t know what will feel from one moment to the next. But what we can assure people is Gloria, and I will do our best to create a nurturing, compassionate space, trusting the people there can regulate and take care of themselves. We’re not cracking people open and sending them out.
Gloria 23:43
No, not at all. I appreciate that reminder, Margaret, I think that, you know, there’s some times in my six week group out, it seems like a strange mix of people, you know, and it always ends up being an enriching, fulfilling experience, at least for me, you know, all my fears are always, or my doubts or hesitancies, I guess I should say, or are always quelled, you know, because I see why those people came together at the time that they did.
Margaret 24:19
And I have no doubt that it won’t be people who have died from opiates only. You know, one of the things Gloria and I have touched on when she came on my podcast, obviously, Aaron story is around opiate. The issues around alcohol and the numbers of lives lost to that disease with that drug, which is legal, is astounding. And so, I have no doubt that our participants will have a variety of different stories and potentially different substances and behaviors that went along with, though there will be that universal theme that everybody is there because the person they love has died.
Gloria 24:58
I always have a short Interview with people that are interested in being part of my six-week group. And I can tell at the beginning their little intrigued, well, you know, how did some of these other people die, and then, you know, I just assure them, or other loved ones died, I just assure him, you know, you’re all going to share the same thing, you are lost someone and you all lost someone to a disease that, you know, we can’t cure, can’t control and, you know, they, you can and we didn’t cause it. And they really get that by the third, third or fourth week that, you know, we’re all in this together for a reason, you know, for kind of the same reason. So, yeah, it doesn’t matter what the substance is.
Jacob 25:46
And as we all know, there’s the stages of grief. Right? And I forgot the doctor’s name, who developed it. What’s her name again?
Gloria: Kubler Ross.
Jacob: Yes, yes. And I think another important thing for a lot of people to know or to learn about is that it’s not a time process, right? Because from what I was taught, doesn’t matter how many years have gone by you can consistently go through the stages to the beginning to the end, and back to the beginning, right?
Gloria 26:13
There’s nothing linear about this at all. I mean, Kubler Ross is a brilliant woman. And she, you know, she kind of saw her stages of grief, which are really about somebody who was in the dying process. They weren’t really about someone who had lost a loved one. But people kind of took that and morphed it into their own process that There’s grief expert by the name of David Kessler, that wrote a book about three or four years ago. And he did a lot of work with Kubler Ross, called ‘The Sixth Stage of Grief Finding Meaning’, I think, ‘Finding Meaning the Sixth Stage of Grief’. And, you know, even that title kind of does something to me, I don’t want people to think that they have to find meaning. And the reason why their loved one died, they may, I mean, I obviously did, or I wouldn’t be here, right? But it has nothing to do with how you heal. When you heal. As you heal.
I just I really have an issue with people that try to put up a box around this because it just, it doesn’t work, you know, so but I will tell you one of the most wisest thing that David Kessler ever said was, somebody asked him, you know, I get asked this a lot of times and in interviews like this, you know, what is the worst loss, anybody can experience and he says, your loss. Your loss is the worst. Margaret and I are going to talk a lot about that, or make sure we mentioned it at the beginning of the retreat, because we want people to understand, you know, it’s your loss, you’re here for your loss, don’t think that one loss, you hear somebody else’s story, and oh, gee, that didn’t happen to me. And so, you know, do I belong here, or I or I have a lot of empathy for them. Or maybe mine isn’t as bad. That’s really not at all, what it’s about. You can’t measure one against the other.
Margaret 28:14
Very profound statement. And I really appreciate it because I think that it’s human nature in the illness model of addiction as family members to witness what I saw over and over again, the child, being the addict is worse, or the partner being the addict, or the parent, right? Like you hear that a lot. And it’s a really important thing to acknowledge that it is truth to our own experience. That’s what’s hard. And not do that comparison and give some legitimacy to no matter who the person is in our life. We’re experiencing similar things. And all of our pain is real.
Gloria 28:50
That really was brought home to me when I started working with people, siblings who had lost other siblings. And there’s a group of people that are really pushed side.
Margaret; Under served.
Gloria: Yeah. underserved, pushed aside, underserved. So much of the attention goes to the parent or the grandparent, or the wife or the husband. And just think about it if you are either one of your siblings. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You have siblings.
Margaret: Oh yeah
Gloria: So when your sibling goes, dies, your whole place in the family changes for ever? Yeah. Then who are you? If you’re not if now, you’re the oldest when you are the youngest? What does that mean in the family? I have a soft spot for everybody. But I think siblings really get get the short end of the stick that way.
Margaret 29:41
I also would assume that part of it also Gloria is if they are the lone sibling, and seeing the enormous pain in their parent. They don’t know that they have the right nor the space to take up because they’re so concerned for the well being of their parents who are shattered by that loss.
Gloria 29:59
I really Try to give them the space, this is your time to grieve your loss. You know, let’s keep the focus on you. And it’s it is a natural thing almost. But, you know, I’ve had siblings in my group that for whatever reason, were their parental figure in the family. Because, you know, the parent, what you know. And so, I have had siblings that I think have had a closer relationship in the way they grew up than sometimes parents and children do. I mean, it’s, you know, there’s a million different ways to configure what it means to be a family. Right?
Margaret: Right.
Gloria: So, I think we have to stay open to that. And like, you know, Margaret says, meet people exactly where they’re at.
30:52
This podcast is made possible by listeners like you.
Margaret 30:56
learn more about registering for this retreat, A Different Kind of Grief at Hazeldenfettyford.org. I will provide the link in my show notes.
31:10
You’re listening to The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast? Can you relate to what you’re hearing? Never miss a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.
Jacob 31:22
You know, I think it’s really cool that you mentioned that. In my orientation for grad school, the professor that was doing was telling her grief story about how she lost her four-year-old daughter. And she had an eight-year-old son at the time. And I’m wondering if that has a lot to do with the age and the development because the son when the funeral happened, had no reaction to it. Until two or three years later, that’s when his behaviors start to really act out. So much to the point where it was affecting the whole family system. And like you mentioned earlier, the parents changed too. And I don’t want to go too far into this. But like the father ended up having an affair. And then the professor at the time went to a psychiatrist to go help her through issues. And she was just asking, why did he do this? Why did he do this? And the psychiatrist said, oh, well, he, I think he took more of a Freudian approach where it’s like, the reason he cheated on you is because he felt like he couldn’t protect his daughter from death. So, he wanted to be, take back his manhood by again, conquering and sleeping with another woman and she just lost her frickin mind on the psychiatrist.
Gloria: Yeah I would too.
Jacob: It was yeah not a funny story. But like, it’s very sad. Very sad.
Gloria 32:39
Yeah. Yeah, you really can’t pigeonhole this.
Jacob: Yeah
Margaret 32:43
And not to mention, assuming as a professional that I know what’s in the mind of someone a I’ve never met with and be right. Even the one I sit with, it’s theirs to determine what they’re doing, why they’re doing, it’s not mine. As the professional I open the space for them to maybe navigate, I ask curious questions to assist them in exploring their own journey. But like, hello, what are we thinking? They’re sorry, that got my attention.
Jacob 33:13
Oh, yeah, she’s Italian. She said, she said every swear word in Italian rap. The story always like, it’s still sticking with me just how the boy just didn’t really, he knew his sister died, but he didn’t fully process it to a later age. And then that’s when the behavior started to come out. So, I’m wondering what happened to that three-year gap.
Gloria 33:36
I have, I’ve had people in my grief groups whose loved one has been gone for 15 years. And this is the first time that they’ve really talked to anybody, because they were told, you know, when their loved one died, they’ve died, they’re gone. We’re not going to talk about this. It’s over. They’re out of her life, you don’t have to worry about it. Just go on with your life. So, you know, that’s, that’s a powerful thing to say to a child. Right? Let’s pretend it didn’t happen. When we know, you know, when they did, but I mean, somewhere in your psyche, you got to. Most people have to process that most people can’t put that kind of a loss aside, so and it’s bound to come out in weird ways.
Jacob 34:22
So now I want to go into a different direction about like particular like scenarios because Gloria I’m not gonna lie. I watched some of your videos, and I thought they were amazing. Prior to the show, and I remember you’re kind of talking about your process and how you said, like the child in itself, or, like when they’re going through addiction, they know what they do wrong. You don’t need to keep bashing or whatever, but love them regardless of where they’re at. Can you elaborate on that?
Gloria 34:52
Oh, every time you say that I get I get chills because I wish I would have known this sooner, I wish I would have known this sooner. Nobody is harder on themselves and wishes that their illness wasn’t what it is, than the person that’s ill. And they beat themselves up every single day, every single moment for letting you down, for letting employees down, for letting other family members down. And they, they don’t need to be reminded by me or by us, whatever of all the things they’ve done wrong because they know it. You know, I mean, some things may have been done under, you know, the influence, but that case of knowing if I would have known that it would have been so much easier for me and for Aaron, if I would have learned that sooner. And I feel like that was one of those things that was beamed down to me. I mean, I, I don’t know how I, but it just, I just one day, I realized, you know, he is this is, he is sick, and he could die. How would I treat him if he had cancer or another terminal illness, I wouldn’t be, you know, telling him every day what he was doing wrong, I wouldn’t be talking about what he was doing right. That was just a big breakthrough for me. And it’s just, it’s one of the important pieces that I think I can share with somebody who has a loved one who’s still alive.
Margaret 36:25
I would add to that, that hurt people, hurt people.
Gloria: Yeah.
Margaret: Which is why what Gloria is doing with families, what I’m doing with families is so important, because I think, until we start acknowledging the impact on us, and understanding even some aspects of this being a no fault disease, and that the person is trapped, hijacked by a disease, that we can maybe get to the point that we understand that when we’re lashing out, it’s from our woundedness as a result of their diseases behavior on us. And that that cycle doesn’t help get any of us anywhere.
And so, it’s setting the boundaries against the disease, loving the person, you know, it’s showing the love for the human being and protecting ourselves from the disease in their active addiction. And that’s a really hard boundary to learn and understand and articulate and figure out. And so, it goes back to that word I love in recovery, grace, right, we have to have grace for ourselves, and to be kind to ourselves until we learn what is the right way to move forward. Because until we do that a lot of us feel very lost and isolated and doing the best we can and then we look at it afterwards and go, oh my gosh, I can’t believe I did that. And I said what was wrong with me. But we’re sober the whole time.
Gloria: Yeah,
Margaret:
The person who has the disease. When this is my experience, when I was coming to and seeing the pain in my child’s eye for my behavior a half an hour ago, as I was fleeced first in my drug of no choice, my disease goes hell get out of here, baby, you don’t want to see that look in their eyes, you’re going back under, the shame still there, the self-loathing still there and exacerbated by it. But the only coping mechanism I know is to go, what fixes it. And so, it’s, it’s a journey for all of us to learn and understand and heal from this disease. And so as long as we’re doing the work we can do, and they’re doing the work they can do. And if they’re not, how do I still show up and love them, but protect myself from the disease?
Gloria 38:32
I love that phrase a no fault disease. I don’t think I’ve ever heard that. If you’ve said it. This is the first time I’ve I’ve heard it. But I I think the other thing that I learned was so much of ties into this, that I think is really important when you’re supporting someone who has a loved one who is still an active addiction is, is to remember to take each incidents no matter how similar it is to something that happened three or four years ago or four or five days ago. and say, okay, where are they today? And where am I today? And how what needs to happen today? Not well, when this came up four days ago, he did this and so that’s probably what he’s gonna do again. But if you can just stay present to what is really going on with them today and what is going on with me. And I think the other thing is with that piece of grace is that one thing that I think loved ones get into is that they feel like they can never change their mind. Once they set a boundary, it’s always the same boundary. And that was another big awakening for me. Oh, I get to change my mind. Hey, I made a mistake. I don’t want to do that again. Let’s do this different. Yeah. Great, great information. Margaret, about all of that.
Jacob 39:50
Well Gloria I would like to ask you a question I have I asked Margaret this too when she was on my show. We love the individual for where they’re at. What do you think about the classic, the intervention and where the loved one walks in, and they’re all waiting for the loved one to show up to again, show them the hurt, like, what are your thoughts?
Gloria 40:09
Well, I can tell you that I tried at once with another relative. And I mean, I had talked to professional interventionists. I had read some books. I mean, I just really don’t even want to give my opinion on that. I again, I think it’s, it’s like what I said before, I think it’s very individual. I know the relative that I did it with it, you know, it was all done out of love and care and concern. And he said to me, if you ever do anything like that, again, I’ll never have anything to do with you. So, you know, that’s my experience. What do you say about that? Margaret?
Margaret 40:47
Yeah I think it’s really interesting, because my lens on it is, in that moment, that person’s disease got pissed,
Gloria: Right?
Margaret: Who had the strength, out of love and compassion to intervene against that disease? The thing that I say, it’s the weirdest thing this came up with my hairdresser of all things, I moved to new area, one of the biggest issues with women is finding the new hairdresser when you’ve been with them one for decades. So, I take the risk, I take the leap, I’m sitting in her chair, lovely woman. And for one reason or another, I commented on her children’s photographs. And she said to me, my family’s really important. I said, well, your pictures show that and your son is the baby. And yes, he’s the splitting image of my brother. And then she paused. And she put her head down, and she said, he died from his addiction. And she went on to say that he hated her. And I don’t understand why he hated me. All I ever tried to do was protect my family from the outrageous behavior he was doing when he was using.
And I said, does that mean you set boundaries to protect yourself from his disease? Yeah, I said, did you say what you thought you saw? Were you straight with him? About your fears and concerns? Yes. I said, have you ever given yourself a moment to think that that his disease, knew who his biggest adversary was, and the family. Who would accuse him challenge him, love on him set boundaries against his disease, so that’s why you are kept at arm’s length. And this tear just came down her eye, and it was like, what I thought he just hated me. I said, I’m guessing your brother loved you and knew how fierce you were. And his disease knew you were in danger. And I don’t know if that’s true. But my God, to see a woman who obviously wants to learn, was asking questions and how to protect your children and. You know, I believe the disease knows who’s the biggest enemy in the family and who they have to keep in the dark as long as they can’t. And I and I also know the disease knows who the hell can be manipulated the easiest in the family. And, and so it was, it was wild, like, what are the chances of that happening? And why in that moment did they take the risk to share when it was obviously scary for her to do that?
And I think that’s the piece about all of this work, right? Like we all are in it for a reason, Gloria is shared clearly part of the motivation and drive for the passion she has for the work. Mine is I was affected by the disease in a partner, an ex-partner, and also in my own awareness of my addiction. And I’m just so grateful. There are people out there. I have such awe for Gloria, that I like to think, God forbid I lose my child that I would still lean into the work and helping others. And, you know, as she candidly said, I share this because I wish I so much had gotten it. I don’t know that I could. I don’t know what the future holds. I don’t know what my story will unfold to be. But I’m so grateful. There are people who are willing to write their books, and share their truth and help other people in these diseases. And this one in particular, where the model is so unique, and so baffling to deal with.
Gloria 44:26
What a gift you gave that woman.
Margaret 44:29
She gave me a gift to Gloria right, like just the willingness to be vulnerable on such a hot subject in the middle of a hair salon. But what I was so in awe of and shared this with her and was able to with your tenacity, to learn to understand to talk to your three children about this being in the family despite it being a secret, and despite the feelings of family members, because you want to make sure that your kids know that it’s okay to go and get help if they’re struggling and know that they will be loved even if they have something wrong. I mean, just amazing woman, I’m going back to her. She’s my new hairdresser.
Gloria 45:08
Good. More has yet to be revealed I bet.
Margaret 45:14
I’m sure. I’m sure. It touches us all. You can’t throw a stone without hitting somebody who’s been affected by the disease of addiction.
Jacob 45:23
You know, Margaret, I love how you said, like, the different types of concepts again, setting those boundaries against the disease, and everything.
And I got another situational story where my dad has his old work, buddy, right. And he has a wife and two sons. And the oldest son got convicted of murder. This is I think back in 2002. Again, so when the oldest son was convicted, you know, the father thought it’d be a good idea to move his entire family to Arizona, to get away from Minnesota. Well, the issue they’re having right now is what the younger son is, he’s developed a severe alcohol use disorder. And it’s getting so bad to the point where he needs to drink a case of beer a day, our liter of hard alcohol, just to be normal in the mornings. And he doesn’t drive his mom and dad will drive them to work every day. He’s like, 37, then my dad went to me for advice is like what you think they should do? Because this guy’s not going to live to 40. And I’m just, one I don’t think it’s appropriate for me to intervene anyways. So, I just said something about how like, well, maybe couples therapy if the son’s not wanting to get help. It’s just so fascinating how when I talk to different professionals, they each have different opinions where this one is like, well, no, that’s enabling. And if they really want to help their son, dead, stop taking them to work, and we’re going to the hospital, we’re going to the doctor so you can get medication to stop your drinking. And I’m just wondering, then, how you love from that situation? If you’re the parents, because like you said, like, you need to love where he’s at right now. But what does that mean, when it comes to like enabling and boundaries? And I’d love to hear your lady’s opinions on this.
Gloria 47:01
Take it, Margaret.
Margaret 47:03
Hi, you bailed on that one?
Jacob 47:05
Again? Initially, we’re just assuming like, well, it’s because his brother is in jail, his novel, again, his brother will be getting out in three years. So again, we’re just kind of hoping that oh, when his brother gets back from prison, or whatever is drinking will stop.
Margaret: Who’s thinking that?
Jacob: Or thinking he’s drinking? Probably because his brothers had been in jail for over 20 years? And because of murder?
Margaret 47:26
So, if we believe addiction’s primary illness, which that’s my bias, then that’s not going to stop it. Because it’s not because of the brother being in prison that he’s drinking, could that be exacerbating his drinking? Absolutely. So again, that’s my bias. There’s others out there who will have a different bias, when it comes to the family. You know, I have recently heard it in the press, some negative terminology about detaching with love and tough love and all that good stuff, right? I would love our society to be less segregated and against rather than unifying and using the tools that work from all the formats. And I also would love if professionals did not attempt to tell families what the boundary needs to be. But ask the family what boundary they can live with setting at this moment.
There is no doubt. And this is maybe controversial, but there’s no doubt that there is going to be grief. God forbid that child passed from their disease in their house. There would also be grief if they weren’t in their house. And that happened. And some families have said to me, I could live with it easier if it was under my roof than out on the street. I have said in feedback to that, I don’t know that to be true or not. But where I would go as a coach for families is how is this living arrangement affecting you as parents? Let’s start there. Let’s not focus on how we change him because they’re powerless to do that. And let’s focus on what do we need as parents to change, to get some quality of life back. So, we’re not sitting in fear, anxiety and vigilance trying to monitor our grown man’s life journey. Gloria, come on, add what you want to add to that,
Gloria 49:18
You know, I really again, you said it very clearly about you know, what’s going on right now with him. And Margaret mentioned this earlier, I guess what I would do is if I was talking to those parents, I would give them all the information. I know. I have coach family members this last year, whose loved one is 20,22 23,24, early 30s that have died from alcohol use disorder. I’m telling you it is dangerous. I mean as much alcohol that young man is taking on and you don’t, he’s still functioning right.
Jacob: Still going to work.
Gloria: People think because alcoholic still function that their brain and their organs are not dying slowly. It is seems like to me people are okay, until they’re not. And then when they go, they go fast. And people say, well, he was still working or he was this or he was that well, that doesn’t mean he’s not ill. And that’s probably what you know. And I would just say, um, you know, I’m not trying to frighten you. But I want you to understand. So, is it more important to take him to work? Or maybe, you know, one of those moments where he has clarity to talk to him about how ill you think he is? And these are some of the consequences of your illness? You could die. Maybe he’ll hear, and maybe you won’t. I don’t know.
Jacob 50:48
Well, it takes courage to have that conversation.
Gloria 50:51
A whole a lot. I
Margaret 50:53
It takes courage to stay invested. Yes, in a relationship with someone who’s actively using, yeah, it takes courage to set a boundary with someone you love, when you fear the outcome will be death. It takes courage to come to a retreat, to talk about the person you loved, who has died from their disease. I don’t think anyone living in this disease as a loved one, lacks courage. It’s just where their energy goes, and how much they can afford to expend. And how twirled up we get trying to figure out the right move, especially if you’re trying to do it alone, which is, like trying not to use our telephones to get us on a GPS path across the country.
Gloria: Right.
Margaret: We need help all of us and deserve help more importantly,
Jacob 51:45
Because it’s so sad, because like my dad was just say he’s like the greatest guy in the world who is very good. And he even has some good cognitive ability because he has a license, but he chooses not to drive because he doesn’t have confidence in himself, because he knows if he gets one more DUI, he’s getting a felony. So he chooses not to drive that.
Margaret 52:05
So again, separating out the disease, right, this we know how manipulative this disease is. I’ve lived in it. I know how it screws up my thinking, that is a boundary that he has placed against his disease. I won’t, and he has family that will pick up the piece so he doesn’t have to, for now, what we know to be true about this model of this disease is it progresses and even those things we swear we won’t do again.
Gloria 52:32
You do.
Margaret 52:34
We do. I hope it doesn’t happen. I hope he’s able to keep that boundary. And what’s the cost on his parents being the ones to drive him to and from every day? How is that impacting their well-being?
Jacob 52:44
Exhausted?
Gloria 52:45
Yeah. Yeah.
Margaret: Yeah. It’s tough, tough scenario.
Jacob 52:51
Well, again, ladies, I had such a honorable time with you, I learned so much. And I’m super excited for your workshop and everything. So again, I just want to inform everyone that is December 9 through 11. And I see there’s some other deals, I’m not sure if you really want to get into pricing, but there’s like, particular intensities, degrees, there’s a, let’s see, cost is $681. Now, is it full already? Or is there still room to sign up?
Margaret 53:19
There’s still room as far as we know. Yeah. There’s so many spots for beds, okay, on site, then there’s spots for if people commute, the thing that people I would like to say is there scholarship available for people who cannot afford to pay for it. Not a full but a partial. And we want people to know that because I think that obviously we want people who feel driven to be there, to have access to it.
It is going to be a combination of lecture, small group, a panel, some creative work, some just embracing the beauty of the campus and walking and taking time to self-care. Rest. No doubt, they’ll be all emotions present. And that’s good. We welcome them. We are there as Gloria and I, Gloria is the pro I’m the fluff and we’re going to have the best experience together because Gloria’s passions undeniable. And her experience backs that tenfold. And so, it’s going to be a really great opportunity to just come along some incredible human beings and be a part of their journey.
Jacob 54:31
Respectfully though your passion is no slouch either though
Gloria 54:33
No (laughter) Margaret is not just the fluff. Let me tell you, we’re gonna, we make a great team. We lead with our strengths.
Margaret 54:46
And the other thing is, is that the universe brought us together, Gloria and I mean, that’s no different than the people that will show up at this retreat.
Gloria 54:51
That’s exactly right.
Margaret 54:53
I love that. If we can lean into that we can trust this is going to be exactly what it needs to be for the people that come and how we do it again. And where we do it again, if we do it again,
Gloria 55:02
Thank you so much, Jacob, for this opportunity. I really enjoyed this conversation.
Jacob 55:11
Also, Gary, would you like to tell us about recovery you?
Gloria 55:15
Well, let’s see. I gave you the website address. And so, I do individual coaching, both grief coaching and recovery coaching for family members. I also do work with people who are seeking recovery. And I think one of the reasons that I, one of the things I emphasize with people that I do work with that are seeking recovery and are just looking for a little bit of help is that I honor all pathways to recovery. So, I’ve worked with a couple of people and offered them some different kinds of support groups, and they get the support they need, and they’re on their way. So grief recovery, coaching and regular recovery, coaching my groups, and, and then this great opportunity to do this with Margaret.
Margaret 56:04
Jacob, I appreciate your I shared it with you last time. But I reflected a lot after our interview, when I was granted, the opportunity to meet with you is I love your enthusiasm, and your eagerness to learn and expose yourself, which is how this came to be to different people in different modalities. And I think that’s brilliant. And I just hope that as your desire to share different people and different experiences on your podcast, that people out there who are thinking about going in the field or early in the journey of learning what they’re going to do in their life careers. Get a chance to be here and hear this from you and from the people you have on, because what a gift I mean. When I was coming through I did similar to you, but not in this platform because it wasn’t around back then. But just a chance to be next to someone who is doing different work and hear from them. And think about hmm, is that the way I want to go? Or is this way I want to go? And I think it’s great.
Jacob 56:59
Well it’s funny from my Adlerian roots, we like to call that the courage to be imperfect. Ah, where I think that was an thank you so much for my grip. I was always a student that would be courageous and ask a lot. I really, I’ll say this again, correct me if I asked some good questions. But my God, I asked some not so good questions, but I always found the best ones to be were ones that I learned. But the ones were everyone got something out of it. And it was a dialogue to other questions that could help other people.
Margaret 57:29
Right, who were brave enough to be perfectly imperfect,
Jacob: Right?
Margaret: As we all are, if we accept it, you know, none of us have all the answers. And that’s what I love it Oh, glory just said, all the different pathways. You know, it’s not ours to determine someone else’s pathway, I’ll be clear about my bias of what saved my hiney. But I’m also willing to learn about others and recommend people go find the others if this is what they need. And that’s important.
Gloria 57:58
That was one of the gifts my son gave me because he was very resistant to the 12 steps. And I you know, I’m still in two 12 Step groups with my own personal recovery with my addiction and then with my you know, it’s like my family recovery Al-Anon Group is you know, you can change horses, but the rider stays the same, right. So, I can always find somebody to be codependent with right. So, I need to keep that in check. All the time. But so yeah, Aaron opened me up to help realization and a couple of other paths that really have added a lot to my own recovery journey. So I’m, I’m grateful for that. So I like to pass that on to other people.
Margaret 58:46
And Gloria just shared something I think that as a professional in any field that is a helping field, definitely with people with the disease of addiction. The challenge I throw out is all of us have earned our seat in a 12 step family recovery community because we’re working alongside people with the disease in recovery, and not in recovery. And so, what about it doesn’t make us a better healthier professional in the field we’ve chosen.
Jacob 59:18
Finally, I just want to ask both you ladies since this is again, a two person interview, a three person I guess, but when you ladies work together what would be your possible future goals in the next five to 10 years would you ladies like do more workshops like this?
Gloria 59:36
Yes, we would, you know this is our experimental baby here. We’ll see what works and what doesn’t but yeah, we would love to take this weekend retreat anywhere. I mean, you know, with so many people dying from this illness. Just think about was 100,000 you know with overdose. Yep. have, you know, in the last 10 years, so just think of think of all those people that are affected, they’re affected by, there’s far more people that they’re affected by the people they love than lots of folks out there out here can use this support. So, we hope we get to take in other places.
Margaret 1:00:19
Ditto. And for now, I am so excited to do this in December, which seems like a strange word because of the topic. But I am so excited to honor the memory of those lost/passed, I’m so excited to stand with the courageous people who choose to come. And I’m thrilled to learn from Gloria and excited for that part of it. And to learn what we learn from it to then move forward and create more, different, better, whatever that’s gonna look like. And I just cannot wait. I cannot wait to put together what we’ve come up with and put it out there and learn and receive from the people who choose to go through it as much as give what we can to them.
Jacob 1:01:06
So then as we end things off, I just want to ask each of you ladies, what would be the best way for my listeners to communicate with you?
Gloria 1:01:14
Oh, well, people can email me at Gloria@nullrecoveringu.com
Or my office phone number is 612-866-1056. So that’s, that’s my contact info.
Margaret 1:01:35
And myself, Margaret. My email is Margaret@nullembracefamilyrecovery.com
My website, embracefamilyrecovery.com
Has this page where someone can fill out if they want to have a complimentary chat to see if we’d be a fit to work together if that’s what they’re looking for. And my phone number, my direct line is 715-501-8392.
And we just want to help families, I think both of us are passionately invested in giving more to the people that are needing and deserving of the help to understand what they’ve been living with and possibly help them find a path forward that brings more joy and peace to their life.
Jacob 1:02:27
To all my listeners, I’ll make sure I put all that information on my show notes. So, it’ll be one click away for you.
Margaret 1:02:33
And if you’d be so kind, Jacob, make sure you put in the Hazelden website and the phone number (651-213-4605) so that if people want to register, they just contact them. If they contact us, that’s fine. We’ll send them to the right people to do the registration if they want to do the retreat December 9 through 11th.
Jacob: Excellent.
Gloria 1:02:49
Thank you so much, Jacob. Appreciate it.
Jacob 1:02:52
Thank you as a true blessing.
Margaret 1:02:53
Thank you.
Gloria 1:02:54
Good night.
Jacob 1:02:55
I just want to thank Margaret and Gloria for being an amazing special guest. It was truly an honor having you on the show. I also want to thank all of my listeners for your support, I would not be here without you. I also want to inform everyone that the information expressed in this episode was not meant to be taken as therapeutic advice. If you do find yourself struggling with a any type of mental health or addiction issues, please seek the care of a licensed medical doctor or a licensed mental health professional.
And if anyone does want to make contact with me, my email is behavioralhealthintegration121@nullgmail.com. I also have a website called behavioralhealthintegration.org. So, if anyone wants to leave a comment, send me an email. That’s how you would do it. Also, please write reviews if you want to. Those are greatly appreciated and helped me out a lot.
I also want to let everyone know that we will be airing a new episode this Wednesday, I will have the pleasure of hosting Dr. Kerry. Kerry is a behavioral scientist and has a passion for work culture research. Her specialty is anxiety and trauma in the workplace, as she will be discussing her experiences throughout this event and so much more. All right, everyone, until next time, have a good day. Bye.
Margaret 1:04:15
Jacob Minnig, thank you for your passion for support, and for letting people know about this incredibly important retreat for people whose loved ones have died as a result of their addiction.
Thank you for giving us the opportunity and the platform to share. Your passion for the mental health and chemical dependence field is evident in this platform. You are dedicated to helping people achieve their personal health. And we thank you for that and for this opportunity.
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website embracefamilyrecovery.com
This is Margaret Swift Thompson until next time,
please take care of you.
