Today I am privileged to introduce you to Nancy Espuche, a mother, an author, a speaker, and an advocate. Nancy has beautifully written Lucas’ story in her book. Nancy’s book is entitled ‘Kardboard House.’
In Nancy’s dedication, she references the music of Hamilton, and the line “who lives, who dies, who tells your story?” Nancy promised to tell their story, and today she continues to do this on The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
Learn more about Nancy and her book on her website https://www.kardboardhouse.com
See full transcript below.
00:01
You’re listening to The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now, here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Margaret 00:23
Welcome back. Today, I have another courageous guest to introduce to you, Nancy Espuche. She is the brave and lovely mother of Lucas. Lucas, her only son sadly died as a result of his opioid addiction. And Nancy, in her beautiful book, ‘Kardboard House’ spelt with a K allows us to go along the journey as she calls it,’ my life altering journey through Lucas’s addiction’ is both powerful, and heartbreaking. Please meet Nancy
01:06
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
Margaret 01:19
All right, let’s get the whistle. It makes our mouths work better that way, you know. So today I am welcoming Nancy Espuche to my podcast. And Nancy, I’m so pleased that you chose to be a part of this. And I know that my audience will learn so much from you.
Nancy: Thank you.
Margaret: You’re welcome. And I wanted to say that your book, Kardboard House was a very powerful read for me. I think we’ll start there. Tell us a little bit about why you chose to write your story? What was the purpose for you? What drove you to write your story?
Nancy 01:59
You know, I think I believe that it was more of a spontaneous occurrence. Lucas was a prolific writer. And I have hundreds and hundreds of emails and letters. Some of them, many of them are exchanges between us over the course of many years. And when he passed, my concern, which was shared with my best friend was that if my computer were to crash, what was going to happen to all of my emails and letters that were not handwritten. And she suggested that I print out all of them, which I proceeded to do. And there was quite a large stack I had, truly hundreds, have hundreds. And I kept them sitting near me at my desk at work. And through my hardship and sorrow and days that life felt really dark. I kept hearing in my head, there are so many beautiful stories written by mothers and parents. I wanted to give voice to Lucas. I wanted people to know what it felt like to be us, together during our journey through his struggle with opioid use. And I just started to write.
Margaret 03:26
Unbelievable. So, the courage it takes to share your story. And I think it’s important to maybe go backwards a little and recognize that your qualifier as we say in the rooms is Lucas. And your journey with Lucas’s addiction spanned how long would you say?
Nancy: 10 years.
Margaret: And you’ve already shared that he was a prolific writer, and that you had grief and sorrow. So, in your book, you’re very candid about the fact that Lucas lost his battle with addiction, at the age of?
Nancy: 25, 25
Margaret: I’m so sorry.
Nancy: Thank you. tough road.
Margaret 04:20
Oh, and it came through in your book. You did a beautiful job of sharing your side of the story. And Lucas’s side. That was one of the powerful pieces of reading both your emails and letters to one another.
Nancy 04:39
Yes, because as we know in life, nothing is ever one sided. And you know, as a parent before I got educated and really clear about what was in front of me. I thought I could direct and teach Lucas the way to travel on his road, but he had his own version and his own experience and his own perception of life and the world. Something that I wish I had honored more in his life.
Margaret 05:18
Do you struggle with that, Nancy? Do you struggle with the whys? The what ifs? Coulda, woulda, shoulda?
Nancy 05:24
I do? I do. And I also repeat, I didn’t cause it, I can’t share it. I didn’t
Margaret 05:33
control it.
Nancy 05:36
Control it. And I think that’s if I were to share one sentence, this would be it with you. That I the essential reminder, despite all the love, no one can chart the course of another’s life, no matter how hard they try. And I wonder sometimes if I had tried differently, or done things with more wisdom, and knowledge that I gained over the course of years, would there have been a different outcome, but that’s a slippery slope.
Margaret: Right?
Nancy: And, and I am a believer in Destiny. And I am a believer that everything happens the way it’s supposed to. And I do believe Lucas was destined to be my son, and I was destined to be his mother. And I also know he was my best teacher about life and love. So, the loss is immense. And I work hard at trying to focus on the other. Can’t tell you it’s always easy. It’s not. I miss him dearly. But I learned quite a bit being his mum.
Margaret 06:52
When you say you try to focus on the other, what would the other be? Because I can’t comprehend this having never lost a child. I imagine the immensity of the loss you describe. Is daily a different level, right? What’s the other? What do you try to focus on?
Nancy 07:16
How to participate in life,
Margaret: Okay,
Nancy: you know, I shut down. And as I imagine, and I’ve heard from many who have lost a child, you’ll never get over the loss of your child. You know, you go through the experience, but people think with time, I think losing a child, I couldn’t have imagined either, what the experience was, and I couldn’t even think about how people would step forward.
You know, my initial challenge was the guilt that I was alive, and Lucas wasn’t. And subsequent to that, or just the daily challenges of how to stay on this planet, without my child, and what that entails. Really getting up in the morning and facing life. And, you know, Lucas had written me on many occasions. I don’t know if any of those writings were in the book, I don’t recall. But he used to say, Mom, it’s your time, it’s your turn, it’s your turn. And that is what I keep in my head. Mom, it’s your turn. It’s your turn. It’s, and I think he would want that for me. I know, I wrote that. I know, he would want that, for me, would not want me to be suffering, and clamming myself, and not participating in the world.
Margaret 08:38
When he would say it was your time before, obviously, he had passed. What did he mean by that?
Nancy 08:43
I was a single mom at the time, you know, Lucas’s dad, and I got divorced when he was going into 11th grade, and I was really solely responsible for Lucas. And he saw the struggle, the, the absolute horror of what I was living through, on occasion, when he had moments of clarity that way. And he recognized, you know, from the financial burden, the psychological, or the physical burden, I was getting sick. All my money was going out the door towards treatments, and lawyers, and everywhere else, and I was struggling, really struggling and I think his heart was able to really recognize that and wanted me to find peace. Despite what was happening.
Margaret 09:38
You were the sole provider, but what stood out in your book to me also was your family rallying around Lucas at different times. He had a tribe behind him or with him or next to him or pushing him or dragging him depending on how we look at it.
Nancy 09:56
My father in particular, Lucas loved him my father has G’pa and my father loved Lucas. You know, Lucas was a remarkable athlete. And my father was an athlete. He’d been drafted by the Brooklyn Dodgers, although he didn’t go, he went on to college and play baseball. But Lucas was six one was a basketball player quite successful played for the Jewish Olympics was all county soccer. He was a natural athlete, played tennis. They called him little Agassi and said he could be a pro if he wanted to be. And they connected a lot on that level. And he was a lover of sports as am I. So, my father could not say no. Whereas, you know, others in the family could draw their boundaries. And did. Lucas always went to my dad and my dad always showed up. Even at times when I asked him not to, with his pocket, and money. It was really hard for my dad to turn away.
Margaret 11:01
The struggle for all family members is how to discern the difference between the person we adore.
Nancy: Yes,
Margaret: and the disease that’s destroying him.
Nancy: Correct.
Margaret: Or her. And so, I understand that battle internally for your father, for yourself, and for every family member of. Is this decision helping my person or helping the disease hurt my person? And how complicated that is?
Nancy 11:28
It’s so complex, and we are so complex as people. I’ll never forget when I saw Dr. Lee at Hazelden, he was not the head of Hazelden Betty Ford at the time, he was the head psychiatrist, when Lucas was there, and I asked for a private meeting with him. And he said to me, you’re going to love Lucas to death. And he wasn’t asking me in any way, shape or form not to continue to love and adore Lucas,
Margaret: of course.
Nancy: But he knew I was destroying myself. And that, as I said earlier, all the love in the world will not save Lucas. Unless Lucas can find a path for himself, to save himself.
Margaret 12:13
You, evidently and obviously through the book as its entailed, offered Lucas treatment, support for his recovery more than many possibly could or would. And I read and heard the struggle of where’s my stop button? Like, how far does this go? And as the book progressed, your struggle with those boundaries? And what will I support and what won’t I support. You use the word complex. And I think that’s a really apt word for this illness. It is incredibly complex. What helped you to evolve, as difficult as it was to set those boundaries when you were starting to learn the benefit, even though it was painful to do so.
Nancy 13:09
You know, the complexity of the human spirit can’t really be drawn. It is so unique to each individual. And so is our ability to keep going or not have that button that says, you must draw the line here. It’s a very fine line. And I know a lot of people who have children who struggle with addiction, and I could give them every piece of knowledge and information that I’ve received over the years. And even really good advice. When it’s your own, Margaret. It’s a whole other ballgame. I used to say to myself, pretend look, this isn’t Lucas, pretend he’s somebody’s child, who you would be giving advice to and follow that. Because through the recognition and the profound love for him. Sometimes it was really, really hard. And I vacillated at times I got a lot of help. There was a group in New York called the Freedom institute that I participated in. And then when I moved out here, I was a member of the Naranon Groups for family members. And I went to three of the four treatment facilities Lucas went to, had family programs. And I every school of thought was quite different.
Margaret: Sure.
Nancy: Which sort of makes it a little challenging too, I might add, and I spoke to people and I read a lot and I practiced. I practiced as much as I could. And every step took me closer to providing my own comfort to myself, and less comfort to Lucas. Not withholding but you understand I think, what I mean.
Margaret 15:02
Well, what I would say my interpretation of that is Nancy, you were realizing the damage being done, as Dr. Lee said to you, and you were providing boundaries to care for you that were around protecting yourself from Lucas’s disease, never not wanting Lucas.
Nancy 15:23
Right, perfectly said. And also, I did know, I would say to myself, at times, this will not help him. If you want to help your child, this is not what you want to do, because it will not help him. And that helped me that sentence over, and over, and over again, in my head. Is going to help him or hurt him. And I knew you, you get quite familiar with the things that are unhelpful. And the things I’m adding to the disease and not supporting recovery.
Margaret 16:06
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
I am so grateful for everyone’s involvement in this podcast. I am grateful to my generous guests who share so freely of their story, which isn’t easy. To my editors for making us sound so wonderful. I’m grateful for the growth. And the fact that more people are hearing this podcast.
When I started my business, I knew this podcast was going to be a passion project, that whether someone saw me in my business and worked with me in my business, there would be something out there that could be a resource for anybody to access at any time. At no cost. It appears it’s needed. As it’s growing. And people out there are looking for experience, strength, and most importantly hope from this family disease of addiction.
Please go to my website, embracefamilyrecovery.com.
And if you are struggling with someone who has this disease and would like help enroll for a complimentary discovery call, and let’s see if we couldn’t be a good fit for moving forward together. Thank you for your support and keep sharing the podcast for people who could use the message.
17:21
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Margaret 17:32
It’s really stunning to me, and always has been working in the field with addiction as a disease and the family surrounding it. How incredibly paralleled our processes with those we love. Lucas was, as it appeared in his writings certain for what would make him feel whole.
Nancy: Yes.
Margaret: And listening to advice and trying on the teachings and the learning and recovery. And I hear that and you also that you were looking for what would fit? What would work? What you could live with.
Nancy 18:07
That’s right. And that’s exactly right. You know, when I first started the process, when Lucas went to his first treatment, they were trying to really help me get a grasp of what was happening, the enormity of what was happening, What was possible, one way or the other, and where he was gonna go, and I knew Lucas well enough, we were quite close. And I know he was not buying what he was been exposed to. He was not eating up the good stuff. I knew his mind was still very much when am I getting out of here? And when can I go back to doing what keeps me away from myself?
Second treatment facility was all about tough love. And it was awful. As a matter of fact, the therapist called me one day and said to me, you need to buy a grief book. And I said, why would I buy a grief book, my son is alive. And he said he won’t be. That’s what he said. I was so devastated from that. And the whole thought process was about, you know, cutting the line in the sand telling your child they can’t talk to you for the next six months, until they dudu duh. And it was awful. And I couldn’t follow that instruction. And it took a while for me to rebound from that.
Margaret 19:37
Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a level of grief Nancy, like if that therapist had been speaking to the level of grief a person feels when they witnessed their child’s dreams not coming to fruition or their child suffering. There is a level of grief in that. But that type of I mean; I always say it to my clients and their families. I wish I could be an accurate fortune teller who is going to be okay and who isn’t. I don’t have that capacity. No one has that capacity. Shame on them
Nancy 20:08
Shame on them. It was terrible. So, it did take a lot of searching it, I needed to find my authentic self in the midst of turmoil and a hurricane. And, you know, the wind changed, sometimes just did, direction changed. I wasn’t certain I was getting more information. I was learning more. I was being fed more you no facts, and then also just listening to people’s stories, and having to formulate my own understanding and opinion and belief about addiction in general. And what my part was.
And on top of that, Margaret, I needed to take a look at myself, too. I wasn’t just searching on how to help my child. I was searching, and how to become a better version of me, and a better parent version of myself. And holding that mirror up to oneself, is challenging. It’s difficult. It’s difficult enough to do just when you want to evolve and grow as a human being. But to have a child struggling and know that there are certain things that you might be doing that are not helpful, and that could be harmful, is a whole other school of education.
Margaret 21:31
And I think the holding the mirror up to ourselves is hard as a family member, no doubt, is also incredibly hard as a person with this disease of addiction.
21:40
Nancy: Correct.
Margaret 21:42
We struggle, the person with the disease uses substances to escape that mirror, we use our addicted person to escape that mirror. Because if we can stay focused on them, we at least feel we’re getting something possibly to happen. And what you speak to is one of the hardest transitions for people who love someone with this disease to make. To begin to internally accept their powerlessness.
Nancy: That’s right.
Margaret: And that though those things feel like they would help sound like they would help. Don’t help the person they love at all. We have to start looking at when we’re doing things to feel better ourselves versus help them in a healthy way.
Nancy 22:26
The hardest thing for me was to think of myself as being unloving. And I had to really identify and define what loving meant. And my therapist in New York, I was talking to him about Luke and that was a terrible time. And I had a lot of money stolen from me. And I said to him, I know he loves me. And, and I know he did. But he turned to me, my therapist and said, Nancy “love is a verb”. It was a stopper for me. I froze in that moment. And went love is a verb. Anybody could tell anybody, Lucas could tell me as much as he wanted, how much he loved me. But his behavior towards me, despite or in spite of his disease, was very unloving, at many times. And that became a place on which I could start finding my authentic voice.
Margaret 23:30
And you shared that with Lucas.
Nancy: Yes.
Margaret: In some of your writing?
Nancy: No,
Margaret: I remember reading that. That love is a verb. So, I’m curious when you reflect on that. Because I know one of the big struggles is the hurt caused by the disease to everyone who loves the person. In the time you’ve known your beautiful son is there any part of you that believes those actions of theft, name them right? The horrible actions that come as a result of the disease would have happened if he were not using an under the influence of the disease.
Nancy 24:06
Not at all? As a matter of fact, the opposite. I still got up until today, he passed away cards, flowers, or coffee? No, there was no more light for Lucas and he was just feeding his illness
Margaret 24:26
And the collateral damage of that spiraled into everybody’s world who loved him.
Nancy: Absolutely.
Margaret: And so, when it comes to love is a verb which I wholeheartedly agree with, in his right mind. Action after action after action.
Nancy: Correct.
Margaret: When the disease was in charge, you were the number one enemy of it. And the ugliness came out.
Nancy 24:55
Yes. I’ll never forget to Lucas visited me here and he came to a NarAnon meeting with me. And he was verbal and graceful and charming as can be, and said to the group, I want to say this to my mother here, and I want to say to each and every one of you, we’re not doing it to you. We don’t know why we’re doing it to ourselves. But it’s not about you. And I want my mom to really know that.
Margaret 25:27
What a gift, what a moment of clarity and a gift to give you and everyone in that room.
Nancy 25:31
And it did give everyone in that room, a sigh, a pause to go, okay. You know, it’s hard not to take it personally.
Margaret: Of course.
Nancy: It’s and you know, you can remind yourself over and over and over again, but I was his number one enemy, because I
Margaret: His diseases.
Nancy: His diseases. Thank you for the clarity. Yes,
Margaret 25:54
I do that a lot. I’m sorry, Nancy. But I feel like we beat ourselves up. We are tortured almost, when we don’t separate them out. And when you say with such adamancy no, he would not do that. I hope that when you have those moments that are incredibly painful, like I can’t imagine of loss, to know that the disease hijacked him, changed him and changed his ability to be your son.
Nancy: Yes. Yes.
Margaret: Makes it less personal.
Nancy: Yes. But I would also imagine, those glimmers of Lucas, that were the authentic him would almost complicate this situation on a day-to-day basis even more.
Nancy 26:41
They do because you want to go in there and grab on to that and go don’t let go. Don’t let go. There was a moment when Lucas left me a beautiful voicemail. Which he did, often. And I heard in my head, I don’t know where it came from. Do not erase. Do not erase. I don’t know why. I heard it. I got scared. I remember feeling very frightened. Why would I not erase this? I’m going to hear Lucas forever. But I didn’t erase it. And I occasionally listen to it. And it’s happy. And Hi, Mom, I love you. I just wanted to wish you a good day. And I go Nancy just to hold on, remember that remember that? Remember, that? Wasn’t I didn’t save one of the ones where he was crying or sobbing or in pain and scared. It was the one that was meant to continuously bring me joy in his absence.
Margaret 27:46
It was him. Not his disease.
Nancy: That’s right.
Margaret: I am so glad you kept that.
Nancy: Yeah.
Margaret: Grief is such a journey, that there is no end and there is no linear progression of I’m through this It drives me crazy. When I hear that it is evolutionary it is up and down. It is good and bad. It is beautiful and joyful and devastating, all at the same time. And I think to honor Lucas by being where you are day to day, in a way that he couldn’t be is absolutely magnificent. Like what an honor to the boy you brought into the world, who you loved who was taken by a disease that was no one’s fault.
Nancy 28:41
Thank you. I will listen to that a lot. That message you hold on to. Yeah.
Margaret 28:51
Yeah, and don’t let anyone ever tell you that you have to grieve in a certain way, Nancy and you seem like a very strong and thoughtful and have a strong sense of who you are. There’s just so much influence out there to tell people how to grieve and it’s so appalling.
Nancy 29:09
Honestly, Lucas did not want to be the man that had become.
Margaret: No.
Nancy: And I don’t want anybody to tell me how I should be in my grief. I
Margaret: I’m glad.
Nancy: It’s so personal. And so private. And as you know, Lucas’s birthday was two to two days ago. And you know, I geared up for so much suffering and anxiety and fear on that day and sometimes you just don’t have the days that you think you’re going to have on the day. She thinks he’s going to have it.
Margaret: Right
Nancy: And I woke up yesterday morning yesterday morning was the day that was not so good.
Margaret 29:57
The day after his birthday
Nancy 29:59
Yeah. Think I just sort of, you know, knuckled the way through and didn’t really want to think about it. And Lucas’s dad and I, his father’s here now, and we had Lucas’s favorite meal for dinner.
Margaret: That’s beautiful
Nancy: Went through the day, which is good.
Margaret 30:23
So, I can’t even assume this is like it. But as a recovering woman, my anniversaries are my hardest time of celebration on one hand, because I am healthier. But after that celebration, when I get that chip, I crash every time to the point that I don’t want to get the chip. And guess what my anniversary is of abstinence? February 18.
Nancy 30:51
Oh, wow. I don’t know if you know this, but the number 18 in the Jewish religion, I was born Jewish, means life. And Lucas was born on the 18th which means Chai. And I always went, look at that. Even for a woman who’s not religious, I don’t practice Judaism. But I went, oh, so I always believed that the date of his birth was relevant, and that he would survive this disease. Now, I think he lived a lot in 25 years. He had the life he was supposed to have in the 25 years. But just for your knowledge, the 18th means life.
Margaret 31:43
Interesting. I did not know that. Thank you for that. And I do feel my life was given to me through my recovery. Both Al-Anon and OA.
Outro: God winks, higher power showing up in skin, never knowing where the messages will come from. I selfishly have to say Nancy gave me many gifts as she shared her story. And I hope you found that to be true for you. Yes, it’s difficult to discuss loss when it comes to the disease of addiction. But most of us live in perpetual fear of it happening. And it can and it does, and Nancy courageously shares with us how she navigates day by day, this painful truth in her story.
Nancy’s Website: https://www.kardboardhouse.com
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story.
Please find resources on my website, embracefamilyrecovery.com
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you.
